A bit bonkers methinks!
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Re: A bit bonkers methinks!
I think it depends on the child.
Some children really enjoy academic study and find it fun; they enjoy that 1-1 time with a parent too. Out of my 5 children, I am afraid just 2 are like that
and I take each child as they come. Dc4 can hardly read three pages of a book before needing to get up and do something else. Dc5 - 2 years younger - will sit next to me for hours.
My mum does lots of crosswords, VR and NVR puzzles in her spare time, not because she is taking an exam (she's in her mid-60s!) but because she enjoys it.
I also think the problem is not studying but the expectations that some parents can place on children and the mental pressure they can be placed under - and that is wrong and completely unhelpful.
I have had children say to me that 'they are going to go to Camp Hill' because their parents keep saying this, which is a bit pre-emptive and only leads to great disappointment if/when they don't.
Some children really enjoy academic study and find it fun; they enjoy that 1-1 time with a parent too. Out of my 5 children, I am afraid just 2 are like that
and I take each child as they come. Dc4 can hardly read three pages of a book before needing to get up and do something else. Dc5 - 2 years younger - will sit next to me for hours.My mum does lots of crosswords, VR and NVR puzzles in her spare time, not because she is taking an exam (she's in her mid-60s!) but because she enjoys it.
I also think the problem is not studying but the expectations that some parents can place on children and the mental pressure they can be placed under - and that is wrong and completely unhelpful.
I have had children say to me that 'they are going to go to Camp Hill' because their parents keep saying this, which is a bit pre-emptive and only leads to great disappointment if/when they don't.
Re: A bit bonkers methinks!
I think Um raises a good point - and I'd just add that it is a choice - some parents feel their children should be of that ability naturally and if not, no studying will help and others feel through extra study their child will achieve higher level work/ better 11+ results.
I've known parents from both camps and I've seen success and failure as a result of either approach.
Having experienced near miss for little fish on the 2013 11+ exam, I can assure you that the downside of a laid back approach is that you then go on to wonder - had I done a bit more, maybe insisted on one ten minute bond a day instead of allowing a few weeks to roll by with no study - would that have meant 5 more extra points?
I'll never know - but I can't help but wonder.
I've known parents from both camps and I've seen success and failure as a result of either approach.
Having experienced near miss for little fish on the 2013 11+ exam, I can assure you that the downside of a laid back approach is that you then go on to wonder - had I done a bit more, maybe insisted on one ten minute bond a day instead of allowing a few weeks to roll by with no study - would that have meant 5 more extra points?
I'll never know - but I can't help but wonder.
Re: A bit bonkers methinks!
"Do not judge me by my successes, judge me by how many times I fell down and got back up again.” Nelson Mandela.
Having looked at the variety of schools that children attend and make their way to the very best Universities in the UK you have to remember that the 11 plus is one exam at a time in life when different children mature at different ages.
Sometimes its how badly you want something and the effort you want to put in which can be the margin between success and failure.But that same approach maybe disastrous for some children.Who said parenting is easy.
Having looked at the variety of schools that children attend and make their way to the very best Universities in the UK you have to remember that the 11 plus is one exam at a time in life when different children mature at different ages.
Sometimes its how badly you want something and the effort you want to put in which can be the margin between success and failure.But that same approach maybe disastrous for some children.Who said parenting is easy.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years.
Abraham Lincoln
Abraham Lincoln
Re: A bit bonkers methinks!
Quasi:
Do children really all have an equal chance of making their way to the very best Universities in the UK?
In my little corner of Birmingham I know of 3 mediocre secondaries that have not sent a single pupil to one of the bridges in a decade.
Little fish is fortunate her senior school has sent one pupil to a 'bridge' (Oxford/ Cambridge) for the last two years - but my understanding for the previous six years running up to that it was none.
The success rate at at King Edward grammar school (state sector) is roughly 10 - 15 pupils (so up to 1 in 10) go on to Oxford or Cambridge.
That is the hard statistics.
And oh - by the way - Oxford/ Cambridge portray state funded grammar school entrants as ordinary state pupils in the statistics.
I think it would be a jolly interesting thing if the government required Cambridge to distinguish between private/ state funded grammar/ state funded comprehensive - I suspect the breakdown of entrants would be more like 40%/ 40%/ 20% (and maybe I'm being overgenerous to the state secotr comps).
Do children really all have an equal chance of making their way to the very best Universities in the UK?
In my little corner of Birmingham I know of 3 mediocre secondaries that have not sent a single pupil to one of the bridges in a decade.
Little fish is fortunate her senior school has sent one pupil to a 'bridge' (Oxford/ Cambridge) for the last two years - but my understanding for the previous six years running up to that it was none.
The success rate at at King Edward grammar school (state sector) is roughly 10 - 15 pupils (so up to 1 in 10) go on to Oxford or Cambridge.
That is the hard statistics.
And oh - by the way - Oxford/ Cambridge portray state funded grammar school entrants as ordinary state pupils in the statistics.
I think it would be a jolly interesting thing if the government required Cambridge to distinguish between private/ state funded grammar/ state funded comprehensive - I suspect the breakdown of entrants would be more like 40%/ 40%/ 20% (and maybe I'm being overgenerous to the state secotr comps).
Re: A bit bonkers methinks!
http://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.u ... statistics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.ox.ac.uk/about/facts-and-fig ... ics-school" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The information on the two links gives applications and acceptances for all schools for Cambridge between 2009 and 2014 and for Oxford it gives total numbers for the schools for applications and acceptances between 2011 and 2013.I do believe children can get to the very best Universities from the majority of schools.There are many top Universities besides Oxbridge.You don't judge a school by the numbers they get to very good Universities you also have to have regard to the number of top candidates they may have and how much those schools push them in certain directions.
http://www.ox.ac.uk/about/facts-and-fig ... ics-school" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The information on the two links gives applications and acceptances for all schools for Cambridge between 2009 and 2014 and for Oxford it gives total numbers for the schools for applications and acceptances between 2011 and 2013.I do believe children can get to the very best Universities from the majority of schools.There are many top Universities besides Oxbridge.You don't judge a school by the numbers they get to very good Universities you also have to have regard to the number of top candidates they may have and how much those schools push them in certain directions.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years.
Abraham Lincoln
Abraham Lincoln
Re: A bit bonkers methinks!
Quasi:
Look at Table 1.1 from the Cambridge data for 2014 - last column total percentages accepted on this http://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.u ... _cycle.pdf - now leaving aside I don't quite understand what the 'other applicants' actually are - that works out to roughly 22% of applicants (presuming the 2% other applicants from maintained sector are in fact comprehensives - which Cambridge neglects to make clear for some reason) - and indeed that is the steady trend my dear.
I suspect Oxford is quite similar.
Table 1.2 is insightful as well (from same document) - for the years 2012 - 2014 the data on acceptance rate is as follows:
Comprehensives - 51% of applicants accepted. (1 out of 2 success rate) - this is a good rate - but I'd put it to you that whereas I can see 10-20% of KE grammar school kids applying to Oxford/ Cambridge for UCAS with predicated A Level grades to support that ambition - I strongly suspect that statistic is not mirrored at Birmingham state sector comprehensives - it's the outlier pupil/ high flier - maybe one or two a year.
Grammars - 90% of applicants accepted (9 out 10 success rate) [suspect this reflects somewhere between 10-20% of student upper sixth form cohort]
Sixth forms - 86% of applicants accepted. ( about 4 out of 5 success rate)
FE Colleges - 36% of applicants accepted. (roughly 1 out 3 success rate)
I do agree with you a grammar school education (just as an indpendent sector education) doesn't guarantee you entry to top flight Universities in UK and that in theory you can gain entry to a 'bridge' from any school in the nation. I just quibble that in practice the odds are equal for the kid at a state comp vs. the kid at a KE Grammar.
They aren't - and that's why you get the six hour a day parent - they're fighting for that end goal I suspect. There's no guarantee of course - but whether it's worked out mathematically/ intuitively/ or just observing that largely in UK people in power tend to have Oxford/ Cambridge degrees - you can't blame people for seeing what that kind of degree can achieve for you financially/ professionally/ etc... - and wanting to help their child achieve that - especially if culturally the drive is for your child to achieve more than you have as parents.
I suppose to put it another way - and hey I totally get that US schools have a ton of problems - but most ordinary state maintained high schools (= UK state secondary comprehensives) send 1 or 2 kids to Harvard/ Stanford/ Ivy Leave Universities a year, every year. And indeed that data is freely available for parents to see.
As far as I can work out - that is not the case for Birmingham state maintained secondary schools (either the pupil achievement/ or the actual hard data on who goes where to University).
Is University for everybody - of course not.
But then again this is an 11+ website and one would presume that those sitting the 11+ are largely self-selecting higher ability pupils who are likely to go on to University - thus parental calculation on what educational path is most likely to result in the desired outcome.
Look at Table 1.1 from the Cambridge data for 2014 - last column total percentages accepted on this http://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.u ... _cycle.pdf - now leaving aside I don't quite understand what the 'other applicants' actually are - that works out to roughly 22% of applicants (presuming the 2% other applicants from maintained sector are in fact comprehensives - which Cambridge neglects to make clear for some reason) - and indeed that is the steady trend my dear.
I suspect Oxford is quite similar.
Table 1.2 is insightful as well (from same document) - for the years 2012 - 2014 the data on acceptance rate is as follows:
Comprehensives - 51% of applicants accepted. (1 out of 2 success rate) - this is a good rate - but I'd put it to you that whereas I can see 10-20% of KE grammar school kids applying to Oxford/ Cambridge for UCAS with predicated A Level grades to support that ambition - I strongly suspect that statistic is not mirrored at Birmingham state sector comprehensives - it's the outlier pupil/ high flier - maybe one or two a year.
Grammars - 90% of applicants accepted (9 out 10 success rate) [suspect this reflects somewhere between 10-20% of student upper sixth form cohort]
Sixth forms - 86% of applicants accepted. ( about 4 out of 5 success rate)
FE Colleges - 36% of applicants accepted. (roughly 1 out 3 success rate)
I do agree with you a grammar school education (just as an indpendent sector education) doesn't guarantee you entry to top flight Universities in UK and that in theory you can gain entry to a 'bridge' from any school in the nation. I just quibble that in practice the odds are equal for the kid at a state comp vs. the kid at a KE Grammar.
They aren't - and that's why you get the six hour a day parent - they're fighting for that end goal I suspect. There's no guarantee of course - but whether it's worked out mathematically/ intuitively/ or just observing that largely in UK people in power tend to have Oxford/ Cambridge degrees - you can't blame people for seeing what that kind of degree can achieve for you financially/ professionally/ etc... - and wanting to help their child achieve that - especially if culturally the drive is for your child to achieve more than you have as parents.
I suppose to put it another way - and hey I totally get that US schools have a ton of problems - but most ordinary state maintained high schools (= UK state secondary comprehensives) send 1 or 2 kids to Harvard/ Stanford/ Ivy Leave Universities a year, every year. And indeed that data is freely available for parents to see.
As far as I can work out - that is not the case for Birmingham state maintained secondary schools (either the pupil achievement/ or the actual hard data on who goes where to University).
Is University for everybody - of course not.
But then again this is an 11+ website and one would presume that those sitting the 11+ are largely self-selecting higher ability pupils who are likely to go on to University - thus parental calculation on what educational path is most likely to result in the desired outcome.
Re: A bit bonkers methinks!
Oh dear....
Looks like the dc who was doing 6 hours a day at the start of this thread has not turned up at school. Either it's burnout or dps think its best if dc stays at home this week instead of sending him to school probably to do more tests upon tests.
I'm not sure what testing at this late stage of the game can change?
Poor strategy methinks!
Looks like the dc who was doing 6 hours a day at the start of this thread has not turned up at school. Either it's burnout or dps think its best if dc stays at home this week instead of sending him to school probably to do more tests upon tests.
I'm not sure what testing at this late stage of the game can change?
Poor strategy methinks!
Re: A bit bonkers methinks!
I have looked at the statistics and I don't think they do suggest going to a Grammar is a more succesful route to Cambridge. If you look at the success rate then the Grammars are pretty spot on. I would argue that in a Grammar environment academically gifted DC quickly realise that they are one amongst many and therefore are possibly more realistic in their expectatations. Also the teachers will often have more experience with Oxbridge and are therefore able to guide them more effectively. All the statistics really tell us is how many applied, how many received offers and how many succeeded. The close correlation between the applications, offers and successes with Grammar pupils purely suggest better advice being given re application.OldTrout wrote:Quasi:
Look at Table 1.1 from the Cambridge data for 2014 - last column total percentages accepted on this http://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.u ... _cycle.pdf - now leaving aside I don't quite understand what the 'other applicants' actually are - that works out to roughly 22% of applicants (presuming the 2% other applicants from maintained sector are in fact comprehensives - which Cambridge neglects to make clear for some reason) - and indeed that is the steady trend my dear.
I suspect Oxford is quite similar.
Table 1.2 is insightful as well (from same document) - for the years 2012 - 2014 the data on acceptance rate is as follows:
Comprehensives - 51% of applicants accepted. (1 out of 2 success rate) - this is a good rate - but I'd put it to you that whereas I can see 10-20% of KE grammar school kids applying to Oxford/ Cambridge for UCAS with predicated A Level grades to support that ambition - I strongly suspect that statistic is not mirrored at Birmingham state sector comprehensives - it's the outlier pupil/ high flier - maybe one or two a year.
Grammars - 90% of applicants accepted (9 out 10 success rate) [suspect this reflects somewhere between 10-20% of student upper sixth form cohort]
Sixth forms - 86% of applicants accepted. ( about 4 out of 5 success rate)
FE Colleges - 36% of applicants accepted. (roughly 1 out 3 success rate)
I do agree with you a grammar school education (just as an indpendent sector education) doesn't guarantee you entry to top flight Universities in UK and that in theory you can gain entry to a 'bridge' from any school in the nation. I just quibble that in practice the odds are equal for the kid at a state comp vs. the kid at a KE Grammar.
They aren't - and that's why you get the six hour a day parent - they're fighting for that end goal I suspect. There's no guarantee of course - but whether it's worked out mathematically/ intuitively/ or just observing that largely in UK people in power tend to have Oxford/ Cambridge degrees - you can't blame people for seeing what that kind of degree can achieve for you financially/ professionally/ etc... - and wanting to help their child achieve that - especially if culturally the drive is for your child to achieve more than you have as parents.
I suppose to put it another way - and hey I totally get that US schools have a ton of problems - but most ordinary state maintained high schools (= UK state secondary comprehensives) send 1 or 2 kids to Harvard/ Stanford/ Ivy Leave Universities a year, every year. And indeed that data is freely available for parents to see.
As far as I can work out - that is not the case for Birmingham state maintained secondary schools (either the pupil achievement/ or the actual hard data on who goes where to University).
Is University for everybody - of course not.
But then again this is an 11+ website and one would presume that those sitting the 11+ are largely self-selecting higher ability pupils who are likely to go on to University - thus parental calculation on what educational path is most likely to result in the desired outcome.
I would be more interested in knowing about the offers that are given to Comprehensive v Grammar v FE candidates. Isn't Cambridge one of the Uni's that use the Durham formula?
Where I do support your arguement is that not all Comprehensives are equal. On the whole Grammars in this country are of a high standard, most if not all getting Outstanding Ofsteds and produce Oxbridge candidates. This is not the case with Comprehensives and FE colleges. Standards are way too variable amongst them and this is still the case despite all the recent Governments best efforts. Good Comprehensives/ FEs produce Oxbridge students, some poor ones do but only by default because of good parental support and direction.
Unfortunately Grammars are also now filled with those very same DC who would undoubtably do well in a poor Comprehensive/FE college
It is a very unequal world
Re: A bit bonkers methinks!
I agree there are many other good universities other than the bridges. In some subjects they tend to be very traditional and that doesn't necessarily suit life after uni. The daughter of a friend at one of the above doing medicine predicted a 1st blew it doing one of her pieces of coursework on something that was perceived as alternative and has been relegated to a 2-1 traditional doesn't suit everyone.quasimodo wrote:http://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.u ... statistics
http://www.ox.ac.uk/about/facts-and-fig ... ics-school" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The information on the two links gives applications and acceptances for all schools for Cambridge between 2009 and 2014 and for Oxford it gives total numbers for the schools for applications and acceptances between 2011 and 2013.I do believe children can get to the very best Universities from the majority of schools.There are many top Universities besides Oxbridge.You don't judge a school by the numbers they get to very good Universities you also have to have regard to the number of top candidates they may have and how much those schools push them in certain directions.
Re: A bit bonkers methinks!
Will you please let us know how this child does? Having followed this thread, I'm thinking of him/her.Bob1892 wrote:Oh dear....
Looks like the dc who was doing 6 hours a day at the start of this thread has not turned up at school. Either it's burnout or dps think its best if dc stays at home this week instead of sending him to school probably to do more tests upon tests.
I'm not sure what testing at this late stage of the game can change?
Poor strategy methinks!
I could guess the parents are doing more revision at home and depending on what level the child was to begin with, I suspect and hope he or she will pass.
