Proposed admission Criteria B'ham Grammars 2020

[JaneEyre]

Many parents on here don't seem to have much faith in their "high performing" kids, (or the Birmingham Grammars) unless they go to a certain school. If a child scores 245+ in the 11+ why would they not continue to do well in any grammar school? My son scored very highly and goes to LSS in Rugby where he mixes with kids who only scored 210 and he continues to perform very well, as do many of those "non high performing kids who scraped a pass"
In fact the school itself performs very well considering its lowly intake
I find the attitudes of many parents and their snobbery regarding "high performing children" quite distasteful.

Hi guest 201,

I have no idea what has prompted you to write your post. If it was my post, I just would like to emphasise that I few days ago I wrote this:

The first line of the article is 'The Selective Schools Expansion Fund will allow grammars schools to expand their premises, offering places to disadvantaged pupils.'
So why create catchment areas if only the score could be worked on for disadvantaged pupils? There is so much unfairness in these catchment areas!

So no snobbery at all as you seem to complain about.

[quasimodo]

Many parents on here don't seem to have much faith in their "high performing" kids, (or the Birmingham Grammars) unless they go to a certain school. If a child scores 245+ in the 11+ why would they not continue to do well in any grammar school? My son scored very highly and goes to LSS in Rugby where he mixes with kids who only scored 210 and he continues to perform very well, as do many of those "non high performing kids who scraped a pass"
In fact the school itself performs very well considering its lowly intake
I find the attitudes of many parents and their snobbery regarding "high performing children" quite distasteful.

This is a thread about the proposed admissions criteria for the Birmingham grammars.

It wasn't snobbery when Jayne Eyre made her very valid comments about diversity.The grammars in the West Midlands are extremely diverse from an ethnic point of view.In fact the argument has to be they are in a lot of them over representative of students certainly from asian backgrounds.Where the argument holds is on social mobility and in particular on boys from white working class backgrounds.

What I find distasteful is not being able to accept a different perspective or point of view without having to agree with it.

[JaneEyre]

Where the argument holds is on social mobility and in particular on boys from white working class backgrounds.

I do not have any data so here are some ideas/concepts based on what I have seen around me and in GS in Birmingham.
Boys from white working class are I guess not present in GS in Birmingham (... or maybe a handful of them?).
But I am rather under the impression that the GS in Birmingham do help with the social mobility of children from an Asian background and also from an African/Caribbean/Arab/Far East background.

Does anyone have some data on these points?

[diomedes]

Where the argument holds is on social mobility and in particular on boys from white working class backgrounds.

I do not have any data so here are some ideas/concepts based on what I have seen around me and in GS in Birmingham.
Boys from white working class are I guess not present in GS in Birmingham (... or maybe a handful of them?).
But I am rather under the impression that the GS in Birmingham do help with the social mobility of children from an Asian background and also from an African/Caribbean/Arab/Far East background.

Does anyone have some data on these points?

Hi Jane,

I don't have statistical data, only what my eyes and ears taught me during my 7 years at Camp Hill, and that is indeed that white working class boys are under represented at the school. The school is dominated by those of south Asian descent to the extent that it is almost beyond the point of being diverse. In my year I was one of a handful of black lads, a similar number of East Asians, then I'de say maybe 30% white lads. The majority of which were from very middle class backgrounds.

From what I have seen, the dominance of the South Asian communities has only increased, and if you were to do the eye test of a school assembly the school would appear c.80% from this demographic . Lets say Birmingham is roughly 55% white and 25% asian ( give or take,) then it is clear that white children regardless of class are under represented at Camp Hill, which excusing my bias, is the flagship school.

I am no parent or sociologist, and its not my place to speculate why this is, but if the true aim of the schools is to make them more accessible to all, their focus group should indeed be white working class boys. Lets see how the proposed changes improve their attendance over the next decade.

I'm well aware I am bound to be accused of harbouring unsavoury views, but this is simply not the case. I loved my time at the school, and made friends for life of all demographics. However a diverse school it is not.

[apillow]

I see a lot of talk about diversity here. My DD go to CHG(Y7). To be honest , I do not(she herself too) does not believe there is a lot of diversity in there. I am not being racist , but telling the truth what I see. 84% of kids in her class are from Asia. So we can certainly say diversity among Asians. That is all and other Forms are the same.I dont know about other Year groups. But from what I see i dont see where the diversity lies.

[hermanmunster]

I think that diversity tends to be used as a euphemism for "non white" in many comments.

Diversity in a Rural Lancashire school means that some people come from Clitheroe and there might be the odd Scot .. oh and an afro caribbean but no asians

[JaneEyre]

Diversity in a Rural Lancashire school means that some people come from Clitheroe and there might be the odd Scot .. oh and an afro caribbean but no asians

Exactly!

But I am rather under the impression that the GS in Birmingham do help with the social mobility of children from an Asian background and also from an African/Caribbean/Arab/Far East background.
Does anyone have some data on these points?

Oops! Oh dear!!! It happens that my question has been misread. Maybe I have not been clear enough as my English tinted with French structures comes in the way.
My post was about social mobility.

The people against the GS often give the argument that these selective school (i.e. the GS) do not offer social mobility. I do not think that this is true, even though I am fully aware that there are a lots of middle class children who do attend GS, whatever the ethnicity of their parents.

I was requesting data about social background of the pupils attending GS. Maybe only the schools can provide this data. And I guess it is difficult to establish the economical background of pupils, hence the use of the FSM (free school meals) as an indicator.

I don't have statistical data, only what my eyes and ears taught me during my 7 years at Camp Hill, and that is indeed that white working class boys are under represented at the school. The school is dominated by those of south Asian descent to the extent that it is almost beyond the point of being diverse. In my year I was one of a handful of black lads, a similar number of East Asians, then I'de say maybe 30% white lads. The majority of which were from very middle class backgrounds.

From what I have seen, the dominance of the South Asian communities has only increased, and if you were to do the eye test of a school assembly the school would appear c.80% from this demographic . Lets say Birmingham is roughly 55% white and 25% asian ( give or take,) then it is clear that white children regardless of class are under represented at Camp Hill, which excusing my bias, is the flagship school.

Like you, diomedes, my DS is in his seventh year at CHB and I have been very active with the AFS (The Association of friends of the School , or PTA if you prefer) so I am very well aware of the ethnic mix of CHB.
I am also aware that very sadly, some ‘white’ parents prefer FW over the CH schools for their children because it is ‘more white’...for the moment ( I do hate having to write such a sentence!! ).
I am totally outraged by this kind of racism. If some people were less racist, the ethnic mix would be more balanced in schools like the Camp Hill Schools and many other GS as anyway, more and more Asian children obtain places there (I have to mention that the ethical mix has also changed over the years in schools like KES and KHES).

I am no parent or sociologist, and its not my place to speculate why this is, but if the true aim of the schools is to make them more accessible to all, their focus group should indeed be white working class boys. Lets see how the proposed changes improve their attendance over the next decade.

In my opinion (which could be changed if some people could present me some excellent arguments ), it is not up to the grammar schools to reach out to the working class white parents. It is up to these parents to work hard with their children like the Asian working class family do.

By the way, I am white (with a tendency to the red! ).
But as I explain before, the skin colour of a person is of no importance for me: I look for the moral principles of the people I meet, their honesty, their decency, their kindness and their empathy, their work ethic and their knowledge and culture. Full stop.

[MSD]

Diversity in a Rural Lancashire school means that some people come from Clitheroe and there might be the odd Scot .. oh and an afro caribbean but no asians

Exactly!

But I am rather under the impression that the GS in Birmingham do help with the social mobility of children from an Asian background and also from an African/Caribbean/Arab/Far East background.
Does anyone have some data on these points?

Oops! Oh dear!!! It happens that my question has been misread. Maybe I have not been clear enough as my English tinted with French structures comes in the way.
My post was about social mobility.

The people against the GS often give the argument that these selective school (i.e. the GS) do not offer social mobility. I do not think that this is true, even though I am fully aware that there are a lots of middle class children who do attend GS, whatever the ethnicity of their parents.

I was requesting data about social background of the pupils attending GS. Maybe only the schools can provide this data. And I guess it is difficult to establish the economical background of pupils, hence the use of the FSM (free school meals) as an indicator.

I don't have statistical data, only what my eyes and ears taught me during my 7 years at Camp Hill, and that is indeed that white working class boys are under represented at the school. The school is dominated by those of south Asian descent to the extent that it is almost beyond the point of being diverse. In my year I was one of a handful of black lads, a similar number of East Asians, then I'de say maybe 30% white lads. The majority of which were from very middle class backgrounds.

From what I have seen, the dominance of the South Asian communities has only increased, and if you were to do the eye test of a school assembly the school would appear c.80% from this demographic . Lets say Birmingham is roughly 55% white and 25% asian ( give or take,) then it is clear that white children regardless of class are under represented at Camp Hill, which excusing my bias, is the flagship school.

Like you, diomedes, my DS is in his seventh year at CHB and I have been very active with the AFS (The Association of friends of the School , or PTA if you prefer) so I am very well aware of the ethnic mix of CHB.
I am also aware that very sadly, some ‘white’ parents prefer FW over the CH schools for their children because it is ‘more white’...for the moment ( I do hate having to write such a sentence!! ).
I am totally outraged by this kind of racism. If some people were less racist, the ethnic mix would be more balanced in schools like the Camp Hill Schools and many other GS as anyway, more and more Asian children obtain places there (I have to mention that the ethical mix has also changed over the years in schools like KES and KHES).

I am no parent or sociologist, and its not my place to speculate why this is, but if the true aim of the schools is to make them more accessible to all, their focus group should indeed be white working class boys. Lets see how the proposed changes improve their attendance over the next decade.

In my opinion (which could be changed if some people could present me some excellent arguments ), it is not up to the grammar schools to reach out to the working class white parents. It is up to these parents to work hard with their children like the Asian working class family do.

By the way, I am white (with a tendency to the red! ).
But as I explain before, the skin colour of a person is of no importance for me: I look for the moral principles of the people I meet, their honesty, their decency, their kindness and their empathy, their work ethic and their knowledge and culture. Full stop.

Spot on Jane!

[MSD]

I am no parent or sociologist, and its not my place to speculate why this is, but if the true aim of the schools is to make them more accessible to all, their focus group should indeed be white working class boys. Lets see how the proposed changes improve their attendance over the next decade.

You will find the overall percentage of white working class boys would not change across the 6 KE schools. There will still be the same minimal percentage of white working class boys scoring above the 220+ cutoff. What will however change with this new consultation is they may be evenly balanced across all KE schools rather than CHB/G being dominated by all high scoring and hard working South Asian boys and girls.

[AK loving Dad]

Diversity in a Rural Lancashire school means that some people come from Clitheroe and there might be the odd Scot .. oh and an afro caribbean but no asians

Exactly!

But I am rather under the impression that the GS in Birmingham do help with the social mobility of children from an Asian background and also from an African/Caribbean/Arab/Far East background.
Does anyone have some data on these points?

Oops! Oh dear!!! It happens that my question has been misread. Maybe I have not been clear enough as my English tinted with French structures comes in the way.
My post was about social mobility.

The people against the GS often give the argument that these selective school (i.e. the GS) do not offer social mobility. I do not think that this is true, even though I am fully aware that there are a lots of middle class children who do attend GS, whatever the ethnicity of their parents.

I was requesting data about social background of the pupils attending GS. Maybe only the schools can provide this data. And I guess it is difficult to establish the economical background of pupils, hence the use of the FSM (free school meals) as an indicator.

I don't have statistical data, only what my eyes and ears taught me during my 7 years at Camp Hill, and that is indeed that white working class boys are under represented at the school. The school is dominated by those of south Asian descent to the extent that it is almost beyond the point of being diverse. In my year I was one of a handful of black lads, a similar number of East Asians, then I'de say maybe 30% white lads. The majority of which were from very middle class backgrounds.

From what I have seen, the dominance of the South Asian communities has only increased, and if you were to do the eye test of a school assembly the school would appear c.80% from this demographic . Lets say Birmingham is roughly 55% white and 25% asian ( give or take,) then it is clear that white children regardless of class are under represented at Camp Hill, which excusing my bias, is the flagship school.

Like you, diomedes, my DS is in his seventh year at CHB and I have been very active with the AFS (The Association of friends of the School , or PTA if you prefer) so I am very well aware of the ethnic mix of CHB.
I am also aware that very sadly, some ‘white’ parents prefer FW over the CH schools for their children because it is ‘more white’...for the moment ( I do hate having to write such a sentence!! ).
I am totally outraged by this kind of racism. If some people were less racist, the ethnic mix would be more balanced in schools like the Camp Hill Schools and many other GS as anyway, more and more Asian children obtain places there (I have to mention that the ethical mix has also changed over the years in schools like KES and KHES).

I am no parent or sociologist, and its not my place to speculate why this is, but if the true aim of the schools is to make them more accessible to all, their focus group should indeed be white working class boys. Lets see how the proposed changes improve their attendance over the next decade.

In my opinion (which could be changed if some people could present me some excellent arguments ), it is not up to the grammar schools to reach out to the working class white parents. It is up to these parents to work hard with their children like the Asian working class family do.

By the way, I am white (with a tendency to the red! ).
But as I explain before, the skin colour of a person is of no importance for me: I look for the moral principles of the people I meet, their honesty, their decency, their kindness and their empathy, their work ethic and their knowledge and culture. Full stop.

Well said Jane.