Proposed admission Criteria B'ham Grammars 2020

[kenyancowgirl]

Quote: ".......it is not up to the grammar schools to reach out to the working class white parents. It is up to these parents to work hard with their children like the Asian working class family do...."

I don't disagree with the spirit of your post, JE, but just this one comment. Personally, whilst GS exist, I think they should be actively reaching out to ALL working class parents and encouraging them to consider a GS education...white, black, Asian or other... If the proposed catchment areas help increase working class awareness of GS (and aspirational awareness) across Birmingham, across all race groups, then that is a very good thing - a bright working class child is what they set up to educate.

[MSD]

Am I missing something? How would introduction of catchment increase participation/places for working class parents? Firstly, there has never been an issue in this respect for South Asian parents as is evident from the demographic of all Birmingham grammars. Secondly, the total numbers getting places across all grammars will still be the same and the competition for places will still be fierce. Only the ones willing to work hard and stand out will get a place. The only way they could have increased access was by offering a lot more PP places than currently in place. Going by the current extra PP places proposed, there will potentially be only one extra PP student in every class and that isn’t great by an means.

[hermanmunster]

Maybe need to look back to the previous social shifts in education when free senior education became available for all and GS were seen as accessible for everyone. Most parents were happy for their kids to give the 11 plus a go and if they got in, then send them there - however there were always some (and a couple in my year 6 in 1969) whose parents simply didn't want them to go the GS - so despite passing, they went to the secondary mod (in both cases with older siblings - this was Solihull and the schools became comprehensive with a sixth form college 4 years later so who knows if that made any difference)

[Emmal]

But of course catchments will make the grammars far more accessible to ALL grammar suitable children within the relevant area - there will actually be a fighting chance for less tutored children, therefore they are far more likely to give it a go. It's all about balance. These are young children. Current admission arrangements encourage aggressive tutoring for 2/3 years! I would not be prepared to put my bright daughter through that - she only gets one childhood - but I honestly believe she would have a chance under proposals. There are so many reasons why the proposals are a good idea. Everybody must start taking responsibility for sensible travel distances for the sake of the environment, if not their children's stress levels.

[JaneEyre]

I don't disagree with the spirit of your post, JE, but just this one comment. Personally, whilst GS exist, I think they should be actively reaching out to ALL working class parents and encouraging them to consider a GS education...white, black, Asian or other... If the proposed catchment areas help increase working class awareness of GS (and aspirational awareness) across Birmingham, across all race groups, then that is a very good thing - a bright working class child is what they set up to educate.

The GS are already doing reach out programmes.
It is the mindset of white working class parents which often is at fault… and I am not sure GS can change that, nor any school… nor the government… It is a matter of education and stop telling lies to children like ‘they will progress if they do not study’.

But of course catchments will make the grammars far more accessible to ALL grammar suitable children within the relevant area - there will actually be a fighting chance for less tutored children, therefore they are far more likely to give it a go. It's all about balance.

I do not understand how catchment areas will stop tutoring.

What annoys me with these catchment areas is that the property market will see some prices go up in some areas, putting the less favorised out of the race for places. I am not sure this is the intended aim! And there are aso all the issues already touched on in this thread.
I do not see the logic in this proposal ; I am sorry.

Everybody must start taking responsibility for sensible travel distances for the sake of the environment, if not their children's stress levels.

I am aware that some children do travel long distances; it is up to parents to make sensible decision, make good use of the train lines, (etc.) or move.

Will there be a catchment area for KES and KHES? No, there won’t be. Though many pupils go there from far away!

The foundation has to be consistent in what it says and not favour well-to-do children!

[Emmal]

I do not understand how catchment areas will stop tutoring.

Agreed that the proposals will not stop tutoring. But in my view they will stop the OTT type of tutoring encouraged by unlimited eligibility. With catchments, there is by definition a smaller group of children who get first dibs on the available places, so less need for aggressive tutoring, not forgetting category 5 will still exist for OOC candidates. I base my view on what I see in other areas of the country already using catchments. Would be interested to know exactly how many GSs use catchments these days.

What annoys me with these catchment areas is that the property market will see some prices go up in some areas, putting the less favorised out of the race for places. I am not sure this is the intended aim! And there are aso all the issues already touched on in this thread.

Many previous posters believe that this fear of house price inflation is overstated. Are you basing your view on evidence from other areas in the country, at the point of moving from unlimited access to catchments?

Will there be a catchment area for KES and KHES? No, there won’t be. Though many pupils go there from far away!

The foundation has to be consistent in what it says and not favour well-to-do children!

I think we get onto questionable ground when we start to compare and conflate private school considerations with GS considerations. GSs are not supposed to be free substitutes for fee paying schools! I think that is often the problem though - it is how they are widely perceived and may well put off the very families GSs are intended to serve.

[MSD]

Agreed that the proposals will not stop tutoring. But in my view they will stop the OTT type of tutoring encouraged by unlimited eligibility. With catchments, there is by definition a smaller group of children who get first dibs on the available places, so less need for aggressive tutoring, not forgetting category 5 will still exist for OOC candidates. I base my view on what I see in other areas of the country already using catchments. Would be interested to know exactly how many GSs use catchments these days.

When a child sets out on the 11+ journey, all they really know is that to have a decent chance of entry, they need to score in the top X percentage of all cohort sitting the test. They can't really predict the sort of competition they will be facing that year - they might just have an exceptionally bright cohort that year. A SD score of 220 in itself means nothing and we can't really relate that to the amount of tutoring that may be required. And you will find most parents will leave no stone unturned to be in that top X. So, I am not sure if there will be any such thing as OTT, as far as hitting a cut-off is concerned.

PS - It's also important to note a lot of non-PP children scoring between 210 and 220 (there will be hundreds) would have secured a grammar with existing system but that will no longer be the case, if new plans were implemented. Therefore, more reason for those who feel they are borderline to have excessive tutoring.

[JaneEyre]

What annoys me with these catchment areas is that the property market will see some prices go up in some areas, putting the less favorised out of the race for places. I am not sure this is the intended aim! And there are aso all the issues already touched on in this thread.

Many previous posters believe that this fear of house price inflation is overstated. Are you basing your view on evidence from other areas in the country, at the point of moving from unlimited access to catchments?

Yes, this has been mentioned earlier on this thread.

Will there be a catchment area for KES and KHES? No, there won’t be. Though many pupils go there from far away!

The foundation has to be consistent in what it says and not favour well-to-do children!

I think we get onto questionable ground when we start to compare and conflate private school considerations with GS considerations. GSs are not supposed to be free substitutes for fee paying schools! I think that is often the problem though - it is how they are widely perceived and may well put off the very families GSs are intended to serve.

I agree with you just to an extent, as I am sure that many parents of the pupils who attend the GS do not have the money for private schools’ fees for one… or worst, several children (as they would have to be fair between their children, wouldn’t they?)

It would also be fair just to add that some parents whose children attend the private schools wouldn’t like them to mix with ‘plebs’ - I am using here the words used by the Sutton Coldfield MP a few years ago. Actually, I have heard some horrible stories of bullying of a ‘coloured’ pupil at KES around ten years ago (My apologies for using a term that I hate!). I know the school has improved loads in this pastoral care aspect. Thanks God!!

at Camp Hill, which excusing my bias, is the flagship school.

CHB is used to teaching some* of the most able boys in the country and the staff is well aware of their ‘special needs’, like -at the other end of the spectrum- people with learning difficulties are helped to flourish in all comprehensive schools.
It would be unfair to deprive children from the whole of Birmingham and around of the fantastic opportunities that they can have at this flagship school.


*As many readers of this forum just browse posts, I need to emphasise that I have used the indefinite article ‘some’. It is well known that some most able boys go to KES (especially when an academic scholarship has been offered) like some others go to their local GS to avoid long journeys.

[hermanmunster]

It would also be fair just to add that some parents whose children attend the private schools wouldn’t like them to mix with ‘plebs’ - I am using here the words used by the Sutton Coldfield MP a few years ago. Actually, I have heard some horrible stories of bullying of a ‘coloured’ pupil at KES around ten years ago (My apologies for using a term that I hate!). I know the school has improved loads in this pastoral care aspect. Thanks God!!

Interesting comment - I remember to the last Head of KEHS, probably about 10 years ago and she was saying that the KEHS was more demographically diverse than the Grammar Schools

[helen0209]

For someone who is not from Birmingham, or indeed an area of the country which has GS’s, it would have been useful if schools were allowed to talk openly about GS’s. Yes, I know we are all capable of researching them ourselves, but when you don’t really know the process or know anyone else who has been through it you’re unaware at what point you need to start preparing.

To help increase social mobility GS’s need to be openly discussed in all schools as an option. A lot of parents in this area do see it as elitist, and why shouldn’t their DCs go to the same comp that they went to 20 years earlier - they did ok from it. If people were more aware of what was involved and felt that their child may be in with a chance then they may put more thought into it and the ‘mix’ could change.

BV did an outreach programme in 2018 which extended to DS2’s Primary, but it was a little late in the year. These programmes need to be at the start of Y5 and not virtually at the end. I know HGS did some last month as DS1 was involved, but how much is fed back to the parents I don’t know.