Enough places?

[Sally-Anne]

The system accommodates 100% of all Bucks resident children, with plenty of places left over.

Do you mean that the system accommodates in a Bucks Grammar School all Bucks resident children who reach the (arbitrary) qualifying level, with plenty of places "left over"? So if the pass mark was dropped to, say, 116, then there would be fewer places "left over" (but still some?), but more Bucks resident children would go to Bucks Grammar Schools? [btw I'm not suggesting this should happen].

Unfortunately that works on paper, but not in practice.

There are 2136 places, and 1509 qualify by scoring 121 or more (not including late testers after Allocations Day), leaving 627 places for successful Bucks appeals and OoC children.

Working very roughly from a graph of the 2006 scores, the following numbers would be added to the system for each 1-point drop in the pass mark:

120 - 165 extra
119 - 150
118 - 170
117 - 172
116 - 190

So, a drop in the pass mark to 116 would add around 850 extra children, and the system as a whole would be overloaded. Full capacity is reached somewhere between 117 and 118.

However, even a drop of one point to 120 would probably start to create problems, because the available places might not match the preferences and geographic locations of the qualified children. Generally speaking, on the current pass mark of 121, that aspect of the system is quite well-balanced in most years, hence the high rate of first preferences met.

Just on that one point: If no other Bucks grammar school featured in the applicant's preferences (but other Herts comps did), would Bucks offer CHS to the qualifying candidate "because it had a place"? I always thought not but this could be the bit I'm missing.

No, they don't automatically offer another Bucks place if another Bucks school isn't on the CAF. Nor would a place at a different Bucks school be offered if the 2nd preference was a Herts school - the CAF is designed to ensure that each child receives only one school place offer - although the system isn't infallible, and some counties are better at coordinating the CAF than others.

Rather than "they are offered a place at CHS", I should have said "a place would be available at CHS if it was wanted", but CHS was not listed as a preference because of (e.g.) transport issues.

S-A

[Sally-Anne]

An interesting PM from a Bucks parent. Apparently there was a box on the paper CAF last year that you could tick if you wanted to still be considered for any Bucks GS, even one that you hadn't listed, if your applications for preference schools was unsuccessful - a sort of "catch all" clause.

However I know that the same option was not present on the online application form/CAF. The parent who PMed me spotted the discrepancy and had discussed it with Admissions, who said it was a "software problem". (It sounds more like a "whoops!" to me, I have to say.)

S-A

[Guest55]

Remember the '121' is artificial - adjusted to qualify 30% each year - this ensures roughly the same number of GS places are allocated each year.

It's good that they are not all full at 11+ otherwise some of us would nt have DCs at a GS

[Dad40]

Just on that one point: If no other Bucks grammar school featured in the applicant's preferences (but other Herts comps did), would Bucks offer CHS to the qualifying candidate "because it had a place"? I always thought not but this could be the bit I'm missing.

No, they don't automatically offer another Bucks place if another Bucks school isn't on the CAF. Nor would a place at a different Bucks school be offered if the 2nd preference was a Herts school - the CAF is designed to ensure that each child receives only one school place offer - although the system isn't infallible, and some counties are better at coordinating the CAF than others.

Rather than "they are offered a place at CHS", I should have said "a place would be available at CHS if it was wanted", but CHS was not listed as a preference because of (e.g.) transport issues.

A useful piece of data would therefore seem to be: what percentage (and number) of OOCs listed a Bucks grammar school as their first preference. This piece of data would fill in the bit we don't know about i.e. WHY they don't take up places....is it because they were effectively shut out by Bucks residents or is it because they were offered and took up places at higher preference (non Bucks grammar) schools?

Answers on a postcard....

[WP]

I suspect that a typical example would be a girl living in Rickmansworth who takes the 11+ in the hope of getting a place a DCHS. They qualify but don't get the place they had hoped for on distance. They are offered a place at CHS, but don't want to take it because the journey is inconvenient, so they go elsewhere - perhaps Clement Danes.

Another point to remember is that Herts parents get only 3 preferences on their CAFs. So if the parents of that girl were rational, they would probably not express a preference for CHS on the form. The effect is the same, of course: they apply for a Bucks grammar (DCHS) and qualify, but do not end up with a Bucks grammar place. Many Herts parents may only feel able to spend one of their 3 preferences on a Bucks grammar.

There may also be some cases of Herts parents preferring a local school but using a Bucks grammar as a backup (as you described for Berks). Some of the SW Herts partially selectives are very hard to get into, and one needs backup. I can also imagine a parent in Tring who might prefer Tring school, but put one or two Aylesbury grammars in as their other choices, as the nearest other Herts schools with 11+ entry are in Hemel Hempstead (and not all desirable).

[Sally-Anne]

I feel sure that you are correct on both those points WP - I have known quite a number of people who have done exactly that.

[asdguest]

There was some talk of Herts changing to 6 choices - that may fill more Bucks places in future.

[WP]

There was some talk of Herts changing to 6 choices - that may fill more Bucks places in future.

Yes, they propose to consult on more preferences, starting from the 2011 entry.

[Dad40]

Yes that could certainly make a difference to the chances of Herts OOCs and could really change the dynamics of place allocation in that part of Bucks.

By extension, it could potentially impact the chances of out-of-catchment Bucks people getting into Chesham High (at 11+ and 12+).....

[Mike]

Hi Guest 55

Is the 30% that you state based on 30% of the total cohort that takes the test?

2136 places available would lead to a figure of 7120 students taking the test from both in county and out of county, which is roughly correct based on previous postings.

53% of the places are offered to children who live in Bucks and who achieve the qualification mark.

I am sure it is not correct to say that the top 30% of the cohort that take the test are offered places because we know that approximately 400 students who do not attain the qualification mark, on the two opportunities provided to them, are offered places.

I assume that the offer is based on "individual circumstances" rather than on the test score.

Regards

Mike