New Bucks Selection Review Process 2012 - 2013

[Etienne]

Interesting - quotas?

This question was indeed raised on the previous thread.

• Clearly it would be in the grammar schools' interests to keep the numbers of children qualifying through the new system the same as it is now as otherwise they would have empty places.

  This is suggestive of a quota - shouldn't decisions be made solely on the merits of each individual case?

The headteachers' manual states:

Once all the reviews have been considered there will be a moderation exercise and only then, once this is completed, will the outcomes be released.

Some scope for adjusting numbers at the end of the process then?

I would love to be a dispassionate observer but have a son in year 6, waiting for Friday, this seems to be a money saving exercise. As a presenting governor and so have seen many appeals, I am far more confident of a system which is not behind closed doors.

I do sympathise. Most year 6 parents won't yet have realised the full implications.

It wouldn't be so bad if the grammar schools chose not to argue the 'fair, consistent and objective' rule with regard to reviews. Bucks parents would then be guaranteed the same right to an 'unfettered' appeal as parents in Kent and Lincolnshire. It still wouldn't be quite as good as the previous selection appeal system (because all appeals will be heard after places have been allocated), but at least Bucks parents wouldn't be disadvantaged to the same extent.

I suppose it's not impossible that some grammar schools might refrain from arguing 'fair, consistent and objective' when it comes to an appeal, or that some appeal panels won't accept the argument anyway - but the uncertainty all this will inflict on the parents involved is going to be unbearable.

[Marylou]

Some scope for adjusting numbers at the end of the process then?

I'm just wondering what implications, if any, all this will have on OOC applications. For example, could a school that historically has a high number of places available to OOC candidates because not enough in-catchment applicants qualified, will no longer have these places because the number of successful reviews from in-catchment will have been adjusted to fill them? Would this even be legal?

Sorry if this is a bit controversial...I'm just a bit concerned that my youngest child might not be able to follow her three older siblings to our first choice of school.

[elevenplus121]

I think the new Selection review Process is a good idea and will make the whole process less stressful. There are parents who have already been through the stress of the 11+ and give up at the last hurdle because of the thought of an appeal. The appeal procedure is very daunting and stressful. There are many parents from all backgrounds who do not have the confidence to speak in front of a panel and in turn might not present their case very well. The Selection review is fair for everyone concerned. I understand there is still an option for appeal if the Selection Review is unsuccessful.

It will be interesting to see how many cases are referred for a Selection Review this year, especially with the knowledge that parents do not have to stand in front of a panel to present their case.

[Sally-Anne]

There are parents who have already been through the stress of the 11+ and give up at the last hurdle because of the thought of an appeal.

I have never come across a parent in either real life or on this forum who has been deterred from going through with an appeal for that reason. If they believe that their child is most appropriately placed in a grammar school, and they have firm backing from the school, even the most shy and retiring parent will go through with the process.

The appeal procedure is very daunting and stressful.

Of course the appeal process is daunting. So is giving birth. So is a child's first day at school. So are GCSEs ... It's called parenting! I would still rather be present to ensure that my child is represented as accurately as possible.

There are many parents from all backgrounds who do not have the confidence to speak in front of a panel and in turn might not present their case very well.

Independent Appeal Panel members are highly adept at encouraging parents to give their full case, even if it takes a considerable amount of careful probing to get the facts. As Etienne has always said, and I completely agree, the quality or slickness of the presentation is unimportant. Appeal cases turn on the questions, not the presentation.

I understand there is still an option for appeal if the Selection Review is unsuccessful.

A very limited one indeed, unless the review is deemed not to have been fair, consistent and objective. Even if the IAP does overturn the review, the parents would then have a combined appeal against both non-qualification and oversubscription. What price then the chances of success for a parent who lacks confidence in speaking in front of a panel?

It will be interesting to see how many cases are referred for a Selection Review this year, especially with the knowledge that parents do not have to stand in front of a panel to present their case.

I fear there will be fewer cases, and many deserving cases will be squeezed out by the new system.

The scope of the evidence that may be submitted is much reduced compared with the previous system, and therefore the burden on Heads to make a strong academic case on the parents' behalf on the summary sheet is increased. Some Heads will unquestionably refuse to make the effort to do that for all but the most obvious cases.

Also, with only 14 days from the date of the results to prepare and submit their entire case (where parents might have had 4 - 8 weeks in the past) I think some Heads and parents will give up the unequal struggle against time pressure, angels and shepherds.

Edited to add:

parents do not have to stand in front of a panel to present their case.

No one stands in front of an appeal panel. Everyone remains seated throughout the hearing.

[Sally-Anne]

Hi Marylou

I am sorry to have overlooked your post.

Some scope for adjusting numbers at the end of the process then?

I'm just wondering what implications, if any, all this will have on OOC applications. For example, could a school that historically has a high number of places available to OOC candidates because not enough in-catchment applicants qualified, will no longer have these places because the number of successful reviews from in-catchment will have been adjusted to fill them? Would this even be legal?

Sorry if this is a bit controversial...I'm just a bit concerned that my youngest child might not be able to follow her three older siblings to our first choice of school.

The appeal reviews must be clerked and documented, just as IAP hearings were.

Any discussion that suggested that a child should be discriminated against because they live OoC should be ruled to be illegal. The same applies to the moderation process. The admissions rules are quite clear - 121 first, then location.

I know you are sensitive (if not bruised black and blue) on this issue, but this is something that I genuinely don't think will be a concern in the new system.

S-A

[pippi]

I think most IAPs would hear far more cases involving disadvantage than are ever measured by FSMs.

That doesn't alter the fact that children entitled to FSM were under represented (by about a factor of 5?) wrt successful appeals. If the old system was so great, then why did you have to post so much advice on this forum? Surely the careful probing of the highly adept IAP members would have got to the facts anyway? I think the pair of you may need to take off your rose-tinted glasses..

[Etienne]

If the old system was so great, then why did you have to post so much advice on this forum?

Er ..... most of what we've done on the forum is to answer questions from parents. There never even used to be an appeals section on here, but questions about appeals were constantly being posted in the Bucks section and elsewhere. We've never actually taken the line "It's such a fantastic system, we're not even going to respond to such questions .........."

After the forum came the Q&As - and the clue is in the title.

I think the pair of you may need to take off your rose-tinted glasses.

Rose-tinted specs, eh?
This appears to be the second time you have misrepresented my views.
Here are just a few examples of what I've actually written.

The appeals system ..... provides rough justice (because it can never be a clinical exercise). I suspect that it does come up with the right answer in the majority of cases, but it doesn’t work for everyone. Borderline cases are particularly difficult.

Appeal panels are made up of fallible human beings .....

It’s not an unfair system we have, more an inexact science! Panels consist of fallible human beings who are expected to make very difficult judgements based on evidence that is sometimes incomplete, sometimes contradictory, frequently hard to evaluate.

the system may not 'deliver' for everyone, and I've no doubt that occasionally the wrong decision is made, either because any panel of 3 human beings is fallible, or because they are being asked to make 'impossible' decisions. You've been around long enough to recall that I've often posed the question "How many marks' allowance should there be if a much loved grandparent dies a week before the 11+? And what about 2 weeks? 4 weeks? 2 months?" No one has ever attempted an answer.

Despite my blindingly obvious caution about the previous system, I do think it will prove to have been a lot better than what lies ahead!

Do you really believe in decisions taken in secret behind closed doors, pippi?

[Etienne]

..... this is something that I genuinely don't think will be a concern in the new system.

Hi, Marylou

I agree with Sally-Anne. We may have serious concerns about the new system, but I can't believe that any 'adjustments' would be targeted at specific catchment areas.

[elevenplus121]

I have never come across a parent in either real life or on this forum who has been deterred from going through with an appeal for that reason. If they believe that their child is most appropriately placed in a grammar school, and they have firm backing from the school, even the most shy and retiring parent will go through with the process.


I know of many parents who have been deterred from this process!




[quote]
Of course the appeal process is daunting. So is giving birth. So is a child's first day at school. So are GCSEs ... It's called parenting! I would still rather be present to ensure that my child is represented as accurately as possible.

Unhelpful comment!

[elevenplus121]

[quote][/quote]I have never come across a parent in either real life or on this forum who has been deterred from going through with an appeal for that reason. If they believe that their child is most appropriately placed in a grammar school, and they have firm backing from the school, even the most shy and retiring parent will go through with the process.


I know of many parents who have been deterred from this process!


[quote]
Of course the appeal process is daunting. So is giving birth. So is a child's first day at school. So are GCSEs ... It's called parenting! I would still rather be present to ensure that my child is represented as accurately as possible.

Unhelpful comment! I have four children so I know it is called "parenting".