Do you think this will be recommended
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I was thinking of the newcomers to the 11+, with queries such as those in 'Rabbit, Headlights, ME!'
The discussion gives good insights into the VR practice, but..
it leaves open questions, and I think that it can be a bit confusing for parents with no experience.
Possibly, the issue of using the NFER papers early on or at the end is just a technicality, as it seems that both methods give great results.
After all, the NFER have only issued 4 papers that will probably represent a small proportion of the total practice.
I just have a question: I can see how using the NFER papers at the end adds to the practice because of the look and feel issue.
But, what do they add if they are used early on, compared with other practice papers? Does it matter if they are skipped at this stage?
The discussion gives good insights into the VR practice, but..
it leaves open questions, and I think that it can be a bit confusing for parents with no experience.
Possibly, the issue of using the NFER papers early on or at the end is just a technicality, as it seems that both methods give great results.
After all, the NFER have only issued 4 papers that will probably represent a small proportion of the total practice.
I just have a question: I can see how using the NFER papers at the end adds to the practice because of the look and feel issue.
But, what do they add if they are used early on, compared with other practice papers? Does it matter if they are skipped at this stage?
Hi Catherine
This may be of interest (I'm strictly speaking not a 'pro' like several contributing to this thread, however having successfully coached both my sons through the 11+ in Bucks and Berks, plus winning an appeal for a second 'pass' for second son, I'm possibly well on my way!).
With my second son I gave him an NFER paper to work through before I gave him any coaching whatsoever, just to assess roughly where he was and to see which areas we needed to focus on. I then left the papers alone, worked through the question types (not being a true 'pro' I did not know about the 21 question types in Bucks, but used the Susan Doughtry books, leaving out types which clearly would not work with a multiple answer type paper). Then, from the August before the exam I returned to the NFER papers, initially setting him half a paper to complete in 25 minutes (did this with the first paper), then set him the rest of the papers with a 50 minutes timing (but allowing him to carry on if he hadn't finished). Incidentally, the papers were identical to the ones I gave my elder son six years prior!
Anyway, it worked for us.
This may be of interest (I'm strictly speaking not a 'pro' like several contributing to this thread, however having successfully coached both my sons through the 11+ in Bucks and Berks, plus winning an appeal for a second 'pass' for second son, I'm possibly well on my way!).
With my second son I gave him an NFER paper to work through before I gave him any coaching whatsoever, just to assess roughly where he was and to see which areas we needed to focus on. I then left the papers alone, worked through the question types (not being a true 'pro' I did not know about the 21 question types in Bucks, but used the Susan Doughtry books, leaving out types which clearly would not work with a multiple answer type paper). Then, from the August before the exam I returned to the NFER papers, initially setting him half a paper to complete in 25 minutes (did this with the first paper), then set him the rest of the papers with a 50 minutes timing (but allowing him to carry on if he hadn't finished). Incidentally, the papers were identical to the ones I gave my elder son six years prior!
Anyway, it worked for us.
Dear Toms Mum
Firstly well done for DIY.
My main reason for posting on this forum is to help parents tutor/coach their own children, which of course includes pointing them in the right direction re appropriate tests.
Your input with your children obviously worked but I cannot recommend such an approach with regard to the the Susan Daughtrey method and technique books, standard form, too many types, some not covered in an appropriate manner.
If its worked in the past through 'ignorance' of the facts, then its well done, but for those just venturing out, wishing to DIY, I must spell out the advantages and disadvantages of publishers, I am sure you understand.
Yes you are quite right these papers have not changed over the years, even the practice papers completed in school have remained the same, hence why they cannot be considered for appeal purposes as too many people have access to them, parents with older siblings, keep them, not knowing they are identical. Now I know why my son scored 100% in his practice tests!
Have you any more children going through the process?
Patricia
Firstly well done for DIY.
My main reason for posting on this forum is to help parents tutor/coach their own children, which of course includes pointing them in the right direction re appropriate tests.
Your input with your children obviously worked but I cannot recommend such an approach with regard to the the Susan Daughtrey method and technique books, standard form, too many types, some not covered in an appropriate manner.
If its worked in the past through 'ignorance' of the facts, then its well done, but for those just venturing out, wishing to DIY, I must spell out the advantages and disadvantages of publishers, I am sure you understand.
Yes you are quite right these papers have not changed over the years, even the practice papers completed in school have remained the same, hence why they cannot be considered for appeal purposes as too many people have access to them, parents with older siblings, keep them, not knowing they are identical. Now I know why my son scored 100% in his practice tests!
Have you any more children going through the process?
Patricia
Hi Guest55
There has always been open debate on this forum, except when peple are deliberately flouting forum rules.
Each year new people come to the forum and it is important to go over previous issues such as the recommended use of papers.
Also as the forum has developed people such as yourself and others have contributed from stances of various experiences and qualifications.
The suggestion that anything that I input into the forum is not open to free discussion is not the perspective that I would advocate to.
Of course it can be a bit of fun to ruffle Patricias feathers because it can add a bit of spice to the debate, but at the end of the day, where appropriate, we are both most interested in serious open debate on 11+ issues.
The NFER practice papers are part of a serious debate regarding their usefulness in the preparation process and, importantly, in the analysis as to whether what they say about their papers is accurate.
Regards
Mike
There has always been open debate on this forum, except when peple are deliberately flouting forum rules.
Each year new people come to the forum and it is important to go over previous issues such as the recommended use of papers.
Also as the forum has developed people such as yourself and others have contributed from stances of various experiences and qualifications.
The suggestion that anything that I input into the forum is not open to free discussion is not the perspective that I would advocate to.
Of course it can be a bit of fun to ruffle Patricias feathers because it can add a bit of spice to the debate, but at the end of the day, where appropriate, we are both most interested in serious open debate on 11+ issues.
The NFER practice papers are part of a serious debate regarding their usefulness in the preparation process and, importantly, in the analysis as to whether what they say about their papers is accurate.
Regards
Mike
Hi Patricia,
No, I don't have any more children due to do the 11+ (thank God!). I have no argument with your advice for parents visiting the forum as you are clearly very experienced - I came to the website late, only discovering it when preparing for my second son's appeal.
With hindsight, my boys' natural ability played a significant part in their success, but my input probably gave them the extra few (albeit essential) marks - they were both borderline passes, so if I hadn't done any preparation with them they may not have passed.
Anyway, if I did have a third child I would definitely be following your advice about the 21 question types, rather than repeating my own methods. That said, if anyone else is like me, home tutoring and coming to this site late, don't worry if you've done things differently - you can still succeed!
No, I don't have any more children due to do the 11+ (thank God!). I have no argument with your advice for parents visiting the forum as you are clearly very experienced - I came to the website late, only discovering it when preparing for my second son's appeal.
With hindsight, my boys' natural ability played a significant part in their success, but my input probably gave them the extra few (albeit essential) marks - they were both borderline passes, so if I hadn't done any preparation with them they may not have passed.
Anyway, if I did have a third child I would definitely be following your advice about the 21 question types, rather than repeating my own methods. That said, if anyone else is like me, home tutoring and coming to this site late, don't worry if you've done things differently - you can still succeed!
To Mike and Patricia,
After reading some of the advice given here, he is confused as to whether include the NFER papers early on in the practice or at the end.
Does he need to worry about it? Is it important?
Could he include two of the four tests early on and two at the end?
Alternatively, could he include the 4 tests early on, and then again at the end of the practice?
Let's say that John is a novice 11+ parent.Mike wrote:Patricia and myself tend to converse about the order of "specific" publications relevant to the Bucks 11+ and other areas.
I will always advocate using NFER papers after completion of types, then The Tutors VR CD2, then the closest papers that really do mirror the content of the real tests (for LEAs using 21 types NFER do not, even though they say that they do).
This to me is a logical progress with the materials available.
Patricia will always advocate the use of NFER papers later on because of the closeness of their Answer Sheets to the real thing and because NFER do write the 11+ papers for Bucks, so therefore she perceives that the questions in the preparation papers are as similar to the real tests as you can get.
After reading some of the advice given here, he is confused as to whether include the NFER papers early on in the practice or at the end.
Does he need to worry about it? Is it important?
Could he include two of the four tests early on and two at the end?
Alternatively, could he include the 4 tests early on, and then again at the end of the practice?
Dear Catherine
Agree it could be confusing. I suspect Mike uses all his own materal, for his courses [ no doubt he willl put me right if necessary.]
I use a varied amount of publishers. My one major concern is that EVERY one of my children take a dip in scores when changing from one publisher to the next. Some of them have just progressed from the Tutors to Bright Sparks they have all 'moaned' about the new look and slipped up on the vocab, their marks have lowered. [ therefore the look and the vocab have made an impact ] Within a few tests, they prefer the new look, ie the answer sheet which is very close to the real thing [hence my ordering of the tests from the Tutors to Bright Sparks to NFER.]
From experience, the same will have happen when I move from B.Sparks to NFER. I would rather my children use NFER last to avoid any dips.
Of course it will be down to personal choice whether a parent uses my method or Mikes [ or any other tutor] Thats something I cannot dictate to.
Not really answering your question, I know. Some discussions I am willing to change my mind if I think fit, however this is probably one of those times that is very much black and white to me...
Patricia
Agree it could be confusing. I suspect Mike uses all his own materal, for his courses [ no doubt he willl put me right if necessary.]
I use a varied amount of publishers. My one major concern is that EVERY one of my children take a dip in scores when changing from one publisher to the next. Some of them have just progressed from the Tutors to Bright Sparks they have all 'moaned' about the new look and slipped up on the vocab, their marks have lowered. [ therefore the look and the vocab have made an impact ] Within a few tests, they prefer the new look, ie the answer sheet which is very close to the real thing [hence my ordering of the tests from the Tutors to Bright Sparks to NFER.]
From experience, the same will have happen when I move from B.Sparks to NFER. I would rather my children use NFER last to avoid any dips.
Of course it will be down to personal choice whether a parent uses my method or Mikes [ or any other tutor] Thats something I cannot dictate to.
Not really answering your question, I know. Some discussions I am willing to change my mind if I think fit, however this is probably one of those times that is very much black and white to me...
Patricia
Ok, Patricia, in your opinion, the order is important, and I understand your reasons for using the NFER tests as final papers.
Now, why NOT use them at end?
PS: I am not taking side or trying to be akward. I just think that it is important to understand the practical implications of your stance on the issue.
Now, why NOT use them at end?
Providing that they are used in conjunction with A C H I L K N O S, what is WRONG with using them as final papers?Mike wrote:If they are to be used as final papers, there should be an extension to the general recommendation to cover HIKNOS that should read A C H I L K N O S the additional three types A C and L are surely not covered in enough depth within the four papers.
PS: I am not taking side or trying to be akward. I just think that it is important to understand the practical implications of your stance on the issue.
Dear Catherine
HIKNOS are always important when visiting NFER papers,
To reiterate, as I use these last as homework, my sessions would include HIKNOS together with a selection of all other types.
In addition, as these tests are completed at the end of my 'course' the children know ALL types inside out and back to front!
Also, while completing shop bought NFER, the children are being tested at school with 21 types NFER, [another reason for keeping the same publisher for the last tests, same type, not confusing child with different looks.
Should parents use these tests at the end without revisiting the other types, then YES that would be a problem.
Of course, the best scenario is for NFER to re publish their papers with 21 types!
Patricia
Ps, I have never seen you as being awkward, your posts have always been informative and polite...
HIKNOS are always important when visiting NFER papers,
To reiterate, as I use these last as homework, my sessions would include HIKNOS together with a selection of all other types.
In addition, as these tests are completed at the end of my 'course' the children know ALL types inside out and back to front!
Also, while completing shop bought NFER, the children are being tested at school with 21 types NFER, [another reason for keeping the same publisher for the last tests, same type, not confusing child with different looks.
Should parents use these tests at the end without revisiting the other types, then YES that would be a problem.
Of course, the best scenario is for NFER to re publish their papers with 21 types!
Patricia
Ps, I have never seen you as being awkward, your posts have always been informative and polite...
As far as I understand it,
Mike would use The Tutors paper last because they are the closest to the test FORMAT (Number of question types, and spread of types within the papers).
Patricia would use Suzan Daughtrey and finally NFER (with other types) after The Tutors papers, ONCE PUPILS HAVE MASTERED THE FORMAT, to get them used to the LOOK(of answer sheets) and STYLE (of vocabulary) of the real test as she feels that it is important.
It all makes sense I think
Mike would use The Tutors paper last because they are the closest to the test FORMAT (Number of question types, and spread of types within the papers).
Patricia would use Suzan Daughtrey and finally NFER (with other types) after The Tutors papers, ONCE PUPILS HAVE MASTERED THE FORMAT, to get them used to the LOOK(of answer sheets) and STYLE (of vocabulary) of the real test as she feels that it is important.
It all makes sense I think
