Is it too early to ask...?

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2littleboys
Posts: 274
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: Is it too early to ask...?

Post by 2littleboys »

Thank you missmarple.

I totally agree with you re tutoring.

I will never forget speaking to a Mum whose son was in my son's year. He was spending the same amount on tutoring a day as my son was spending a week ie @ 2-2.5 hours :shock:

His Mum told me that he wasn't allowed to do any extra curricular activities/playdates/parties/sleepovers in year 5 which again I thought was over the top and dare I say cruel?

Incidentally my son qualified and hers didn't.

I know that my post may come across as "bitchy" and smug but I don't mean it to. I have got to go through this process again and who knows what the outcome will be? I just think it is so important to remember that these are 10 year old children and they deserve a childhood.
Aethel
Posts: 1161
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:24 pm

Re: Is it too early to ask...?

Post by Aethel »

I was sad that several of my DD's friends were removed from clubs to "concentrate on their studies" in y5.

We DIY'd and passed: did the little-and-often approach. 10 minute tests CGP were once a week initially and we just went through the answers together. Initially untimed, then timed as we got nearer. Went through the study guide for maths and VR toncheck she'd covered the common possible types of question, but only did CEM stuff, ie no 21-types or wretched code NVR!

Worked on finding any weak areas and gently checking them and less attention to things I knew she was good at. Would have done more speedy maths if we'd had time.

Approach with DD2 will be completely different this year: still bite-size-chunks but she has different strengths and needs. The advantage of DIY is you can "tailor". And I think its more humane than tutoring hothouses, but more work for the parent!!
Ricky74
Posts: 732
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2016 1:55 pm

Re: Is it too early to ask...?

Post by Ricky74 »

missmarple wrote:As a rule, I find children need to be top table in either maths or English or both. The exception is when you have a child who has had their education disrupted (illness, been abroad etc). They can sometimes put on a tremendous burst of speed in Y5 and show their true potential, provided they put the work and the parents give a lot of support.

Having said that, IMO children should do max 1 hour tutoring per week plus max 1 hour homework. Bucks seems to be full of exhausted and overstressed children doing several hours tutoring each week which seems cruel to me. But other posters may disagree!

My two are top 1 and 2 in the third best primary in Birmingham with 90 in a year. They work on separate tables etcOredicted 6s in SATs etc. It wasn't enough. Our results for Bham were not good enough yet mediocre kids who shared the same tiutor passed with flying colours. Those with our recommended tutor did not score well. Luckily one DS scored well for walsall but again the other did not score as predicted. So I disagree about top sets. Our teachers were genuinely shocked by the scores for the 11 plus. Such a shame as it it were based on school work we would have sailed through.
Guest55
Posts: 16254
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:21 pm

Re: Is it too early to ask...?

Post by Guest55 »

Ricky74 wrote: My two are top 1 and 2 in the third best primary in Birmingham with 90 in a year. They work on separate tables etc predicted 6s in SATs etc.
There have been no levels for two years now and certainly none in the KS2 tests .. I'm confused.
missmarple
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:56 am

Re: Is it too early to ask...?

Post by missmarple »

Sadly, I wouldn't say that being top table is enough on its own. Apart from numeracy, the 11+ bears very little relationship to classroom work and you cannot reply on a good education to get a child through the tests. But I do think that being top table is a good indicator that a child would be suitable for grammar school, and with intelligent support (either via a tutor or parents DIY) stands a good chance of passing.

If your child is middle set for everything I would question whether they'd be happy at grammar school. I have seen several children tutored into scraping through to grammar school and then having a miserable time.

The factors which contribute to passing are: innate intelligence, a stimulating upbringing with plenty of reading, a decent school and some exam preparation. Innate intelligence on its own is not enough - and that's why there'll never be a level playing field.
BucksBornNBred
Posts: 1031
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:01 pm

Re: Is it too early to ask...?

Post by BucksBornNBred »

missmarple wrote:The factors which contribute to passing are: innate intelligence, a stimulating upbringing with plenty of reading, a decent school and some exam preparation. Innate intelligence on its own is not enough - and that's why there'll never be a level playing field.
Then something has gone seriously wrong with the 11+ if that is what people believe. I did not have a stimulating upbringing with plenty of reading, I did not have a decent school (the police were more interested in us than the secondary school) and I had no exam preparation (beyond being taught methods to solve problems). It must have been my innate intelligence that ensured I passed the test, which is what the test was designed for.
ironic
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:15 pm

Re: Is it too early to ask...?

Post by ironic »

My son had one hour tutoring a week, one-one. It was perfect for him and I wouldn't change a thing. The "homework" took him about an hour a week so I don't think that was excessive. He was fairly laid back about it all and took it in his stride thankfully without getting at all stressed. I am a grammar school maths teacher and, had I had the time (I work FT!) I would have "tutored" him myself but as it was it worked brilliantly. He did extremely well in the exam and, in hindsight, probably would have passed easily without the tutoring, but he can be a bit on the lazy side and it helped focus him. He is superb at the maths and the NVR which come naturally to him but he used to find the verbal a bit more challenging, mostly because he doesn't really enjoy it as much. Having a little extra guidance in that area paid dividends - he ended up doing best in the VR section of the test!
As I do teach in a grammar school, I was really torn between tutoring/not. I see every day the impact on kids who really struggle at a grammar school because they have been tutored to the eyeballs to get in and then have to get tutored to the eyeballs to have a hope in **** of keeping up. The homework is time consuming enough, then they have extra work for their tutors! It's awful, it really is. Their self esteem hits rock bottom.
In the end I tried to take my biased parent hat off, and put my unbiased teacher hat on. I knew deep down my son could more than hold his own at a grammar school (comparing him with kids I teach), hence I decided that giving him a little extra support via a tutor was the right thing to do as I didn't have time to do it myself. After all, would you send a kid into a GCSE exam without revision?? The tutoring was much more about exam technique rather than force feeding him things he couldn't otherwise do. But as I said to my son, the best way to prepare for VR and comprehension is simply to read as much and as widely as you can to develop vocabulary and language skills!
2littleboys
Posts: 274
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: Is it too early to ask...?

Post by 2littleboys »

Thank you ironic I think you sound very sensible-glad it worked out for you :)
ToadMum
Posts: 11907
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:41 pm
Location: Essex

Re: Is it too early to ask...?

Post by ToadMum »

ironic wrote: As I do teach in a grammar school, I was really torn between tutoring/not. I see every day the impact on kids who really struggle at a grammar school because they have been tutored to the eyeballs to get in and then have to get tutored to the eyeballs to have a hope in **** of keeping up. The homework is time consuming enough, then they have extra work for their tutors! It's awful, it really is. Their self esteem hits rock bottom.
In the end I tried to take my biased parent hat off, and put my unbiased teacher hat on. I knew deep down my son could more than hold his own at a grammar school (comparing him with kids I teach), hence I decided that giving him a little extra support via a tutor was the right thing to do as I didn't have time to do it myself. After all, would you send a kid into a GCSE exam without revision?? The tutoring was much more about exam technique rather than force feeding him things he couldn't otherwise do. But as I said to my son, the best way to prepare for VR and comprehension is simply to read as much and as widely as you can to develop vocabulary and language skills!
Unless you are in an area with a vast oversupply of grammar school places, and your 'tutored to the eyeballs' pupils represent the top end of those who couldn't have achieved a grammar school place on their own merits, I'm sure the local non-selective schools are very glad of the increased intake of able children that they displaced.

It's interesting, though, that you make the comment, as someone actually 'at the sharp end' about the intensively tutored pupils needing ongoing tutoring to keep up. 'Received wisdom' is usually that however a child got their place in a grammar school, they deserve to be there. I suppose you should be grateful that their parents just get on with it and get their chequebooks out, rather than blaming the teachers for their DC's shortcomings :shock: .
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.Groucho Marx
Aethel
Posts: 1161
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:24 pm

Re: Is it too early to ask...?

Post by Aethel »

The flip side of "those who are over-prepared may find it hard to keep up" is that any child may have pacing problems when they actually get there - and as a non-teacher myself I find it hard to be sure of how one is supposed to know if our DC are "suited for grammar" given the limitations of the info that comes home from school.
I am always told at parents feedback that DD2 is very switched on verbally, enthusiastic in class, keen to share her knowledge, yet all the new not-levels do is tell me she is performing at expectations or exceeding them (approaching in writing due to SEN) ... it's impossible to know if she will struggle in Grammar based on so little Indication, which leads us back to the entirely non objective gut instinct and the possibly flawed approach of "don't hothouse and if she gets in then it's clear she's meant to be there"....

I think the main priority is happy(ish) children, and trying to avoid getting caught up in the insanity of intense/years worth of tutoring. I know certain cultures have intense pressure socially to overtutor, it's almost seen as negligent to DIY.... it is hard to be critical given the enthusiasm shown for education, but there has to be a balance.
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