Aren't Bucks parents cheating ?

[Rebel]

You seem to hold this forum responsible for some cheating that according to you might happen, but hasn't happened. Noone on this forum has made any attempt to communicate to others any test question or any answer. Why would the forum try to discourage something that doesn't exist?

What is your point?

No, I'm using the forum merely as a point of discussion and this thread seemed a logical point to do it. (I'll happily raise a new one if necessary). It would be silly of me to hold the forum responsible for the existence of this loophole. As I've said, even if there were discussions specifically about the questions - then that would arguably be better for the wider public than if private individuals were able to do it on a singular level. The question remains though - is it legal? If it isn't contravening any 'rules' then it can't be classed as 'cheating' can it? That said, it clearly doesn't seem moral to the most of us, most of the time, but that could be considered otherwise irrelevant.

And, by the way, you are describing elaborate ways of cheating on a public forum. Although they are quite far fetched, this is not a very good idea. You may inspire someone, and your attempt to deter cheating would be conter-productive, wouldn't it!!

If we follow that thinking we wouldn't have hard-hitting consumer watchdog programmes that warn us about how we might be scammed and conned by elaborate and far fetched methods - because it's giving potential criminals ideas! We could be talking £50k here for the alternative of private secondary education so the potential rewards are not peanuts.

I certainly know of some very bright pupils in my son's school who have no interest in passing the 11-plus simply because they prefer going to the local comp with all their mates etc and their parents are not 'bovvered'. Exactly the sort of people who could do with a few 'extra quid'.

The best point I've heard so far is from the 'Guest' about difficulties with standardisation of the tests, if completely different ones were used for the late takers.

I didn't say that the answer would be easy, and I'm not expecting the forum to come up with it and to implement it - but not to discuss it at all would be childish.

It is clear as well that this issue is not peculiar to Bucks, so please let's not take it so personally and maybe I should move this discussion out of here.

[As for the ads Maggie, I don't know what you're worried about there, but that definitely belongs on a different thread.]

[Catherine]

Hi Rebel,

Sorry, I had interpreted this the wrong way as ..the forum not making any attempt to deter cheating...
>>Certainly, this forum cannot be accused of facilitating cheating by discussing what is in fact public knowledge, i.e. the question types that seem more likely to come up in the 2nd test.
What is so surprising and disappointing is no attempt is made to deter cheating by 'late takers'.>>

As for the issue of the late takers getting hold of the questions before the test, I suppose that the LAs have weighted the problem of having a different late test and its potential unfairness (standardisation etc..) against it.

I believe that the cases of it happening are rare incidence for the reasons that Patricia mentioned. And I think that anything more organised is very unlikely because not many people would use eleven years old in the cynical way that you described.
I suppose that it is always possible to find a loophole in any system and ways a cheating it, and that, with any exam there are students that manage to get an unfair advantage one way or another.
It only becomes a problem when 'cheating' is too easy and too common.

But there is no comparison between the ease of 'cheating' with GCSEs course work for example and the 11+, and also the mind of 15 years old with the one of 11 years old.

I think that the 11+ system is far from being perfect and it can be a let down for children whose parents are not clued-up enough about it.
But the issue of a loophole with the late tests isn't, in my opinion, of a great significance.

[Robbo]

Thought you'd be interested in my experience last week ... I have twin girls. One sat the test on Thursday while the other was off school sick! Apparently there were several absentees. My daughter and everyone else who sat test 1 were sworn to secrecy by the teachers. She told me she was "quite happy" with the test and that's all that was said about it.
She was just incredibly relieved to have got the first test out of the way.
Meanwhile, her poor twin sister still has it hanging over her, although she seemed comforted by the fact that her sister came home quite happy after it and there will be others who will be sitting the missed test with her. The plan is that the absentees will sit test 1 on Wednesday this week while the others sit test 2. The "missed" test 2 will then be taken on Friday hopefully!
I just want to say - from my experience last week, there is NO WAY that I would try and glean information from one daughter in order to supposedly "improve" the chances of my other daughter. And my daughter would never divulge anything to her sister about the test she missed: having been sworn to secrecy by the teachers anyway, she knows that it would be cheating and wrong. I know they're only ten years old, but they do know what's right and what's wrong and (at this age at least!) they do have a great deal of respect for their teachers.

[Rebel]

It only becomes a problem when 'cheating' is too easy and too common.

But there is no comparison between the ease of 'cheating' with GCSEs course work for example and the 11+, and also the mind of 15 years old with the one of 11 years old.

I think that the 11+ system is far from being perfect and it can be a let down for children whose parents are not clued-up enough about it.
But the issue of a loophole with the late tests isn't, in my opinion, of a great significance.

Well said Catherine, and the point is taken.

Robbo - well that really is a model of morality that your daughter's have grown up with there - you can be wholly proud of them! In theory you could easily take advantage of that situation - and swap them over for the next test(!). However, I can imagine it being the sort of thing that would prey on their cotton-little minds throughout their schooling - i.e. that they had actually cheated, and that doesn't really bear thinking about.

Thanks to all for their input - and sorry again for hijacking the thread somewhat.

Thanks also to Patrica for the perfectly legitimate help you have provided - like the word lists for example - they're great!

[one down onetogo]

As the implied instigator of this thread, by my inititiation of the "what didn't appear in today's paper" thread, and being considered not a moral member of society, I feel it necessary to write a few words of explanation.

When I picked my son up at lunchtime I asked him what questions had come up, so as we could focus HIS practice on the ones that would appear in paper 2 (especially one's HE found difficult). AS AN AFTERTHOUGHT I decided that I would (innocently) post what he had told me on this forum. I thought I was being considerate in giving back a little to a forum that has been invaluable to us these last six months. No details of actual questions were mentioned-I didn't even ask my son to try to recall any specific questions. The last thing any child wants to do after an exam is go through it all again.

All that was revealed by the information I posted was the 12 (rather than 22) types of question children should focus on over the next six days. Hardly an atttempt to beat or cheat the system.

I cannot believe the thoughts and accusations it has sparked off in some people's minds. Perhaps the stress of the 11+ is getting to the parents?

[one down onetogo]

Should have put 21 question types

[Anotherguest]

Perhaps it's not parents who are cheating.

I don't know if any one else has heard any stories similar to this but would be interested to hear if so.

A friend of a friend's (yes I know) child attended their last 11+ coaching class on Monday evening. This is a small class taken by a teacher from his primary school and the children practiced some final questions in preparation for the first paper on Thursday.

When he came out of school on Thursday he said that 15 of the questions were the same as (not similar but the same) those they had practised on Monday.

Regarding the comments above about children actually remembering in detail the questions, some doubt might be cast on the boy's statement but is interesting all the same.

On another related point it is widely known that one particular primary school in Aylesbury (which Estate Agents always put high up in their details) starts their 11+ preparation much earlier and for much longer than allowed by Bucks CC. I am sure that they are not the only ones but those children that go to schools which do follow the rules are obviously disadvantaged, or should that be cheated.

[Catherine]

Hi Rebel,

After having read this thread in the Birmingham section

http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/ ... highlight=

I must admit that I am changing my mind about the possibility of late test takers getting hold of answers.

[Rebel]

Well Catherine, as I think you said before, it is not so much whether the cheating happens but rather how much of it goes on and I had been convinced that it was very limited in impact.

Of course, the 'cheating' itself can take many forms and be to varying degrees. Not wishing to stir up the hornets' nest again, but I would bet any amount that some student somewhere has got or will get by next year, mobile phone pictures of a paper or maybe specific (long-winded) questions. I know I'm giving away all the ideas - but questions could also easilly be 'whispered' into an MP3 voice recorder. Maybe we have to 'frisk' for such gadgets these days - and why not?

As I said before, the tutors are a big industry and their ongoing reputation depends on it, to squeeze out those extra percentage points, and that's easily done with just a few timesaving answers. Yet again though, the ones most likely to benefit are those with most money and least morals. (Not suggesting that those with more money have less morals!)

Finally, I can't actually understand why there needs to be a gap of 2 weeks or so before the 'out-of-county' takers do the tests. Reducing that elapsed time would help allay my fears.

[usa]

We are out of countRy - thousands of miles away. We were ready for the test on 5th Oct like everyone else but the papers did not arrive until Monday this week. My son has gone off the boil a little now, but we have arranged his 1st test to be taken tomorrow at 0700. (The school were quite happy to give them to him at 4pm, 1 after the other!). Does it help that I "know" what types are supposedly in the 1st test (assuming the tests are given in order) - NO. Why would it help? We can pull letters out of a bag and chances are some of those will be question types that will be on the test. How can it help my son knowing that type * will be there? He is just as good/bad at all of them. They are all going to be covered.
He has no external tutor - just me, IPS and this great Forum (whose advice I could not have done it without) - IF he passes, it will be down to those things and his intelligence coming through, and not if ABCDE etc are on the 1st paper.
USA