CAT score, relationship to eleven plus performance, boys

Eleven Plus (11+) in Gloucestershire (Glos)

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CAT stanine & Boys GS most likely to get into/qualified for

Crypt Stanine 7
1
8%
Crypt Stanine 8
1
8%
Crypt Stanine 9
1
8%
Pate's Stanine 7
0
No votes
Pate's Stanine 8
1
8%
Pate's Stanine 9
2
17%
STR Stanine 7
0
No votes
STR Stanine 8
1
8%
STR Stanine 9
5
42%
Not qualified for any GS Stanines 7-9
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 12

yoyo123
Posts: 8099
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:32 pm
Location: East Kent

Re: CAT score, relationship to eleven plus performance, boys

Post by yoyo123 »

we have VR, NVR and maths here in Kent for kent test
Etienne
Posts: 8978
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:26 pm

Re: CAT score, relationship to eleven plus performance, boys

Post by Etienne »

In my area we have two VR tests that are said to be of equivalent standard. In a perfect world the two scores would be more or less identical. Quite often, of course, they're not ........
Etienne
haeckel

Re: CAT score, relationship to eleven plus performance, boys

Post by haeckel »

This is why any comparison - in this situation - should be with CAT VR, not with the overall CAT result.
Quote:
In the example given in the Q & A, surely you would expect the eleven plus test score to be lower than the CAT score, because the CAT score is standardized across the whole population, whilst the eleven plus is standardized across those children who are entered for the eleven plus, which is likely to be a significantly more able population.
I agree, but (1) how much lower? and (2) how many people are just going to make a simplistic comparison?
Quote:
The Q&A is perhaps a bit misleading
I hope not - we start with a clear warning not to make a simplistic comparison:
Quote:
Different tests measure different things, might be carried out under different conditions, and could be standardised differently.
The example serves to illustrate how difficult it is for parents to understand the significance of CATs in relation to the !!+.
I think it's great that people can swap so much info on this site & help each other understand it/the ongoing situation most of us are in. I'm not sure I agree that it's difficult for parents to understand the significance of CATs in relation to the eleven plus. I don't think we need everything simplified for us. The schools often seem to choose to do that for us anyway, which is partly why this site is so useful & interesting!
Etienne
Posts: 8978
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:26 pm

Re: CAT score, relationship to eleven plus performance, boys

Post by Etienne »

Good to know that the site is helpful.

I wasn't suggesting that parents shouldn't understand how well CATs correlate with the 11+ , but it's just a reality that many don't. Take into account 'confidence intervals', and you start to realise just how complex it all is.

In my area the LA finds it necessary to advise even primary school heads: "Be wary about extrapolating directly from other test results when considering whether a child is going to figure in your [11+] recommendations."
Etienne
muminTewkes
Posts: 266
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:57 am

Re: CAT score, relationship to eleven plus performance, boys

Post by muminTewkes »

Can I just ask(Etienne?anyone?)if primary schools DO(or are supposed to)recommend any pupils for the 11+?
It obviously is of no consequence now,but,we have never had any info/suggestion from ds1's school regarding the 11+and whether he should have taken it.
I do believe some pupils I know did from this school-but it was a few years ago,so,Im not sure if anythings changed or,if,they just dont support it(or us :wink: !)now...
turtleglos
Posts: 455
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:04 pm

Re: CAT score, relationship to eleven plus performance, boys

Post by turtleglos »

My school do not support the 11plus and will give out no info at all other than what is sent by the lea. I have been advised that dcs "will do well no matter what school they go to if they want to"(not my experience at all).
I believe that it is supposed to be the same throughout glos.
Everyone is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will think it is stupid.
Etienne
Posts: 8978
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:26 pm

Re: CAT score, relationship to eleven plus performance, boys

Post by Etienne »

Can I just ask (Etienne? anyone?) if primary schools DO (or are supposed to) recommend any pupils for the 11+?
I think it's usually up to individual schools to decide what to do. It's just that in my area the LA organises the 11+ in such a way that primary school heads are actually required to submit recommendations in advance of the 11+:
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/11plus ... ers.php#e9" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What I was focusing on above was the general understanding of CATs, and the interesting fact that one LA should find it necessary to advise even headteachers that there is no direct correlation between alternative reasoning tests and the 11+.

The correlation is more reliable, of course, if there is a series of consistently very high CAT results, as opposed to just a single snapshot.

Take the case of VerySadDad in Kent who had to prove at appeal that the 11+ maths result was a blip. He had the results of a series of CATs tests, taken over an extended period, where quantitative reasoning came out at the 99th, 98th, 98th and 95th percentile. Even allowing for confidence intervals, the sheer consistency of these excellent results made for a compelling academic case. (He lost his early appeals for different reasons - oversubscription - but won in the end.)
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/ ... 35&t=15339" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Etienne
capers123
Posts: 1865
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 9:03 pm
Location: Gloucestershire

Re: CAT score, relationship to eleven plus performance, boys

Post by capers123 »

muminTewkes wrote:Can I just ask(Etienne?anyone?)if primary schools DO(or are supposed to)recommend any pupils for the 11+?
I've never heard of state schools in Gloucestershire recommending to certain pupils take the 11+. It could be the case that if a teacher, who happened to beleive in the 11+, thought that a parent hadn't considered entering their child, they might informally suggest it at a parents evening. I've never actually heard of that happening either.

In other areas it does happen, partly because heads have to rank the pupils before the exam, and the rankings are used in case of an appeal. I can assure you that that certainly doesn't apply in Gloucestershire - unless I've managed to doze through that section of an awful lot of appeals :shock:
Capers
Tolstoy
Posts: 2755
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:25 pm

Re: CAT score, relationship to eleven plus performance, boys

Post by Tolstoy »

I am almost sure when this subject came up in a meeting I attended (not re admissions) we were told that the official LEA line is that schools were not to advocate the Grammars as such and certaily prepping was a no no.

Thankfully I know that our head has advised at least one parent this year to put her daughter in for the test and DC has self tutored herself a pass for Denmark Road. She is exactly the sort of child who will benefit from a Grammar school, very bright and very keen to learn but whose caring parents were not in a position to give her any coaching ( I say this to dispel the myth that all parents are capable of helping if they could only be bothered, many aren't) . This particular head also advises parents to consider other comprehensives rather than our allotted one and has he an excellent record with successful appeals. Although he will only support a Grammar appeal if the school is suitable for the DC.
yoyo123
Posts: 8099
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:32 pm
Location: East Kent

Re: CAT score, relationship to eleven plus performance, boys

Post by yoyo123 »

schools here do give some indication as to whether or not a pupil would be suitable for Kent test, but then we have county wide selective education ( unlike Bucks we have to elect to opt in )
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