high scorers...what do you think made the difference?

[mum23*]

I have always advised starting tutoring/diy from Jan but you might be right some DCs might not need that long?

btw not sure I made myself clear reading back my op. My DS scored 222 so wasn't in the high scores that I'm talking about. My query came about because I felt I had done quite a lot with him (and 2 friends) and wasn't sure if there was anything I hadn't done enough of.

Now I think the only thing I would do more of is exam technique and there have been some good suggestions here. I just ploughed through lots of tests and went over the errors and did some focus on weaker types but probably by the last few weeks there wasn't much need for this. More helpful to consider the best way to tackle test conditions. I suppose like in sports it is often mental strength and focus that has the edge.

I'm not sure my DS would ever have achieved the 240+ mark even with this. It doesn't mean I am not totally pleased and proud of him because I am but I think it helps to understand that I didn't really under prepare him, some DCs are genuinely more able.
And yes I do also know that it is possible to be extremely bright and have a blip/bad day etc before anyone reminds me that 11+ test is not always a true reflection. I am just interested in what you all have to say, there have been some really thoughtful replies. I think it is not always easy for the really high scorers to come and talk about it but it's been interesting.

And yes, I agree with Tolstoy, forget any ideas of not needing any preparation via a tutor or parents. In this area at least that is rubbish, you need it. Read Cairos post above.

[PaterGloucester]

Those of you with DCs that scored highly..240+ what do you think made the difference? .

Hi Mum23*

Here's a reposting of two messages I placed on the forum last year. I think they may be relevant to your question. I may be a bit off topic but the following contains all can think of in answer to the question of what might have made a difference.

Post 1:

My DS took the test in 2010. He had some fairly desultory VR lessons at the (independent) school he attends, and (I think) eight hour-long coaching sessions with a tutor. I went through tests with him at home (perhaps a couple of hours each week) and did lots of word games, vocabulary building, etc with him on journeys to school and whenever else we had the chance. He achieved a mark of 266 standardised against the STRS cohort, and will be taking a place at Pates.

When I asked him to allot percentage scores for the three sources of tutoring he had received, the results surprised me. He ascribed 65% to me, 25% to his tutor and 10% to school. This is wholly unscientific and completely subjective, but the important point (and the reason I'm posting this) is that in his mind the DIY input I gave was far and away the most useful to him. He considered it was by far the biggest contribution to his achieving a pass. (Surprised by these figures I told him that he did not have to flatter me and that all I wanted to know was what he really thought. On hearing this he revised his figures to 75%: 20%: 5% !). I'm not so vain as to agree with this as I believe the tutor's help was much more important than he gives credit, but that's not how he sees it.

Hence, based on my experience, I believe that it's really important that your DS has some DIY tutoring. All the other kids we know who did well in the 11+ had parents who were extremely focused and supportive (in some cases downright pushy) and gave up at least few hours each week. I think it's true to say that many parents opt for private primary education because they desperately want a place at a Grammar school for their child: Pates in particular, along with STRS and HSFG or SHS. So it might be worth explaining to your son that GS places are highly sought after, and that losing a few hours of play time each week is a small price to pay for something that will help him for the rest of his life. We know of people who have turned down generous scholarships to Cheltenham College and St Eds in favour of a place at Pates, purely on the basis of Pates' stellar academic excellence.

Incidentally there's another thread in the Gloucester forum called "What would you have done differently", or something similar. This should provide useful tips. You'll find a lot of useful info if you delve back to last year's topics.

He is in the top sets at primary but won't do anything 'extra' at home including reading.

Talk or bribe him into it. Get him reading by starting a good book with him. Get him goal-focused and explain what's at stake and how the system works. Take him round the school of your choice and let him see just how good it is. Explain that a GS place won't fall into his lap: he has to want it and work for it. No amount of tutoring, DIY or otherwise, will help if he's not truely eager to win that place.

Is this fairly typical for a 9 year old boy? Am I starting too early?

Yes and probably yes respectively. Once we got started our DS actively enjoyed doing VR tests and he would frequently ask if we could do extra work to explore the various types of question. He had never asked to do work before and hasn't since, reverting to coach potato mode on opening the envelope containing his results.

Starting date is very much dependent on the individual. We started in the March before the exam and in retrospect that was too early: May or even June would have been better. Bright kids get bored repeating things they can do easily. One thing I think most people agree on is to stop all tutoring at least a month before the exam to keep the kids fresh and eager. Coaching up to the last minute is generally agreed to be counterproductive (again, search the threads and you'll find more on this).


Post 2 (In answer to forum topic "What would you do differently ?"

if I did it again I would:

-- Start VR home tutoring sessions later. I started in March and in retrospect that was too early. Bright kids get bored repeating things they can do easily.

-- Possibly do one - but only one - 'double test' of two papers like the real thing. I decided not to because I didn't think there was any need (DC agrees), but it would have been one less thing for me to worry about.

-- Not paid any attention to DC's gloomy comments on being collected from the exam !

I were to offer one piece of advice it would be to ensure that they have experience of doing truly difficult tests, at the level of the second paper. Most of the widely available practice tests do not reflect the difficulty of the second paper, and I reckon this is why some really able kids don't achieve marks that reflect their true ability. They freak out when they see paper two (or in this year's case paper one).

[EmeraldE]

I'll throw my suggestions in:
1. Get involved, no matter how busy you are try to find the time to do some prep with your child. If you know how to do the question types, and your child feels you are involved, (it is not something a tutor just does with them) you can then begin to target your child's areas for improvement. Don't be a passenger on this journey.
2. Get the basics spot on and your child very confident with functions and techniques (many ways to build these, too many to mention here)
3. Do not under estimate the work that is going on elsewhere."Oh, we have hardly done anything with our daughter" can translate to "we have been working for months and do not want to discuss/share info with you." This is important as some people fall into the trap of thinking just doing 4 papers is sufficent (it is for some kids but not most)
4. Neglect the psychological element at your peril. Prepare your child that others may suffer, 'attack of the vapours,' crying, fainting, vomitting etc. They will have time to console their classmates later, after the exam! In the meantime head down and focus, the invigilators will sort out issues. Make this very clear, in a kind and caring way of course.
5. Equip your child with coping strategies, buzz words or phrases to calm them should they start to get stressed or feel panic rising in the exam. Reinforce these during practice sessions at home before the big day.
6. Know the system. Keep a check on the forum for updates which might effect your child's exam.
7. As a parent, keep yourself outwardly calm (inwardly terrified!) and help your child to stay calm.
8. Build vocab like your life depended on it.
9. Good exam technique, what to do if running out of time, time left over, tricky questions etc. Practice these techniques.
10 It is called verbal 'reasoning' for a reason. Don't just guess at questions, try to work on their ability to reason which answers it couldn't be etc. Process of elimination.

All in all, not much!
EE

[mum23*]

Great posts Pater and EE.

Very sound advice. These ARE the things that "make the difference". I totally agree that it is vital for parents to involve themselves and not just use a tutor. I think parents should probably take a test themselves at the beginning of the preparation time and truely become familiar with exactly what is expected in order to pass. This means that even if you employ a tutor you can be building vocab and mental maths and supplementing what a tutor does. When it comes to it for this area you need BELT AND BRACES! (Read the previous posts, esp Cairo and EEs) these are voices of experience.

When DD1 took the test no scores were given which makes for less analysis and fretting but is not so helpful in practical terms with the CAF so probably on the whole it is better to know.

I wish the very best of luck to anyone embarking on preparation for next October. You will build up a tremendous bond with your DC through this process and see them grow over the year. When they step through that school gate on test day you will feel incredibly proud (and emotional) whatever the result.

[muddywaters]

I also think you have to use common sense. This is not the be all and end of all. There are great comprehensive schools and faith schools in our area that do not require 11+ or tutoring and your child being happy and fulfilled and not having to strive every day to keep up is really important if they're not grammar school level with CAT tests or with your own instinct. THEY WILL STILL SUCCEED IN LIFE!! Time for me to retire from here- see you all in March 2012.

[mum23*]

Yes I agree there are other excellent schools and children do very well in them. I went to a comprehensive and so did DH. It is sensible to be realistic about whether it is a good idea for DC. However, if you are going to go through the 11+ process (and this is an 11+ site after all) then you might as well know what will give a child the best chance of success and what does make the difference. It's a lot of work and quite nerve wracking on the day. To me this discussion is not even so much about the end result as helping a child to face that day confidently with the chance to do THEIR best, whatever the outcome, and not let unexpected things cock it up. Also to help parents support their children by knowing some good tips. People who have posted have done so with that aim in mind, to help by their experience, not to say grammar schools are the only good schools. I don't mean to sound snippy but sometimes (esp as a prospective 11+ parent) it is good to come on a site like this and cut to the chase of the how to's not the philosophy of whether or not to (although I agree there is a place for those discussions too).

My DCs are all done and dusted but trust me..if you are about to embark, there is some good solid advice above. And the stark (and yes unfair at times) reality is a few marks can make the difference.

[Tolstoy]

Also we are not all in the fortunate position of having an acceptable Comprehensive school nearby and if that is the case it is often easier to get into a Grammar than try and get into a decent Comprehensive school or Faith school that is further away.

Many DC despite all this don't get a Grammar place because it is not the right school for them. I am still yet to see the proof of these supposed children who pass through tutoring and then struggle, can it be proved? Often I think there is an assumption that children who find the academic pace of a Grammar tough are assumed to have been over tutored. Not so in my opinion, in any environment there will be those that excel those in the middle and those that don't. Sometimes the ones that don't simply don't have the right attitude to study. This was the same even when Grammars and tutoring were not synonymous.

That said I do agree that we can become to all consumed by this process and only the parent can decide how much of the above they want to do with their DC. As Mum23* says this is a guide, people need to be realistic about how much other people are doing rather than finding out after it is all too late. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and here we have it.

[Munchkins]

Tolstoy, my DS received No tuition whatsoever. Didn't even have a practice of any of the maths or English papers except for a 10 min Bond VR test on the Monday before the Saturday exam. Guess what. He passed with flying colours!!!!

[hermanmunster]

Hi Munchkins

The thread you have just posted on is quite old so may not get much response from the others on it.

Glad to hear that your DS got through the exam OK -, quite a lot do fine with no prep although there are as many who do no prep and then really regret it. Trouble is you can't repeat the experiment and try it with and without prep

[PaterGloucester]

Tolstoy, my DS received No tuition whatsoever. Didn't even have a practice of any of the maths or English papers except for a 10 min Bond VR test on the Monday before the Saturday exam. Guess what. He passed with flying colours!!!!

Did he take the 11+ in Gloucestershire ? To gain at place at one of the county's top grammars with no tuition or familiarisation would be truly remarkable. I have never heard of anyone managing to do this, so if he did (and even if he didn't) congratulations !