The tutor proof test

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Flash
Posts: 72
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:09 pm

Re: The tutor proof test

Post by Flash »

DebsB wrote:
Tolstoy wrote:Can I just ask how you know which DC have been excessively tutored, DebsB?
There are some students - lovely kids many of them, well behaved, try hard - who struggle so much that you just wonder how on earth they got in. I can't prove it, but I'm as certain as I can be without actual proof that if a child wouldn't have got in without lots and lots of tutoring, but has lots and lots of tutoring and as a result gets in, then that child is more likely to end up struggling than a child who gets in, or would have got in, with more moderate preparation. Note that I say "more likely" and not "certain". But I didn't want to take the risk with DD. If she couldn't get in with the level of tutoring I organised for her, I'd have preferred for her to go to a comp and shine there.
I totally agree DebsB.

I know of some parents who have had 2-4 tutors this year for the 11+ as they are so desperate for a grammar place. It seems since the test became tutor-proof parents have gone mad.

Those poor children. How much work have they had to do just to get a place?

Surely if that much is work is required to get in, then that should tell their parents something. They need to take a step back to let their children prove their own ability.

Struggling in a selective school is terrible for their confidence and happiness.
Last edited by Flash on Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DebsB
Posts: 144
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:25 pm
Location: Cheltenham

Re: The tutor proof test

Post by DebsB »

Thanks Flash.
Glad it's not just me. :wink:
scaredycat
Posts: 105
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:36 pm

Re: The tutor proof test

Post by scaredycat »

I think it's a case of gaining a place is the beginning of the journey rather than the end!
Debims
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:21 am

Re: The tutor proof test

Post by Debims »

Out of the group of friends my DD started this journey with, those who were naturally 'bright' but weren't tutored at all have been offered places at GS - and some who were tutored, private schooled and made to believe they were owed a place at GS haven't. I'm no expert but in the experience of our small group this test has indeed proved that you don't need a tutor to be successful. Wouldn't it be great if all kids who got a GS place this year were the right kids to thrive in that environment, because it's right for them rather than a better fit for the parents. In future years, who knows - this year, I'm convinced it was as fair a test as it could be.
warden
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:06 pm

Re: The tutor proof test

Post by warden »

It may or may not be tutor proof, but I suspect those educated at private school with small class sizes will be much more likely to achieve the breadth and depth of education necessary to progress through the new test.
At least previously it was within more people's reach either financially or in terms of their own time (DIY) to give their state educated child an extra helping hand to level the playing field slightly. I fear the game has changed now and the unintended consequence of the new regime will be that grammar schools will become ever more elitist and accessible mainly to those able to afford a private education.
Cup of tea
Posts: 139
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:19 pm

Re: The tutor proof test

Post by Cup of tea »

warden wrote:It may or may not be tutor proof, but I suspect those educated at private school with small class sizes will be much more likely to achieve the breadth and depth of education necessary to progress through the new test.
At least previously it was within more people's reach either financially or in terms of their own time (DIY) to give their state educated child an extra helping hand to level the playing field slightly. I fear the game has changed now and the unintended consequence of the new regime will be that grammar schools will become ever more elitist and accessible mainly to those able to afford a private education.
I think it's less about private schooling and more about middle class expectations. DD is at private school and there is a real mixed bag of results (as there was in the old style test). Some have qualified, others not at all despite tutoring. They are not hot-housed or tutored since Year 3 at school for the exam! In fact, with the announcement of the new test this year in February they did very little preparation.
Everyone I know who has passed from state school has also had some form of tutoring. That implies you can either afford it or have the intellect and inclination to help your child and do it yourself. Everyone on here tutors, be it DIY or sourced elsewhere. No test is tutor-proof and anyone who tells you otherwise is mad. Imagine going into a French oral without practising, or an aural test in a music exam? You don't know the exact questions but you practice beforehand.
Tolstoy
Posts: 2755
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:25 pm

Re: The tutor proof test

Post by Tolstoy »

scaredycat wrote:I think it's a case of gaining a place is the beginning of the journey rather than the end!
Very true and you can't just assume that because a DC struggles or doesn't succeed at Grammar School it is because they have been heavily tutored.
DebsB
Posts: 144
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:25 pm
Location: Cheltenham

Re: The tutor proof test

Post by DebsB »

Tolstoy wrote:...you can't just assume that because a DC struggles or doesn't succeed at Grammar School it is because they have been heavily tutored.
True. My post was carelessly worded and I shouldn't have implied that. I'm sorry. :(

I still think that heavy tutoring increases the risk of a child getting in despite not really being up to the challenge of being at the school, and that was a risk I didn't want to take with my DD.
quest
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:50 pm

Re: The tutor proof test

Post by quest »

DebsB wrote:
Tolstoy wrote:Can I just ask how you know which DC have been excessively tutored, DebsB?
Well, I don't know, of course. But I'm aware that the amount of tutoring varies a lot. And I'm aware that some kids do well enough on the exam to get in, and then have a miserable time struggling to keep up right from the beginning of Y7 and for the whole time they're at the school. Maybe some of those children were just unusually lucky on the day of the test and did better than they normally would.

What I'm certain of is that the bottom of the academic pile at a selective school can be a demoralising place to be. Consider this actual conversation I had with a student in Y10:
Student: I'm useless at maths. I just can't do it.
Me: What grade are you hoping to get for your maths GCSE?
Student: A*
Me: Then you can't be useless at maths, then. You do realise that out there in normal schools, what most people worry about is whether they will manage to get a C in maths, not whether or not their A will have a star on it? If you were in one of those schools, you'd still be aiming for A* but you'd probably be in a top set for maths and think you were really good at it.

There are some students - lovely kids many of them, well behaved, try hard - who struggle so much that you just wonder how on earth they got in. I can't prove it, but I'm as certain as I can be without actual proof that if a child wouldn't have got in without lots and lots of tutoring, but has lots and lots of tutoring and as a result gets in, then that child is more likely to end up struggling than a child who gets in, or would have got in, with more moderate preparation. Note that I say "more likely" and not "certain". But I didn't want to take the risk with DD. If she couldn't get in with the level of tutoring I organised for her, I'd have preferred for her to go to a comp and shine there.
My DS is in year 7 and half of the students in his class went to private primary school. His is very clever and not struggling in any subject. But some of the above average public ( LA schools) school kids are struggling in some areas in maths. It is not because they are not clever but because the private school ones have already covered those topics in their primary school and are able to grasp those things faster. There is no way an average kid from very bad primary school is going to pass the eleven plus exam without with the tutoring whether DIY or paid. Tutoring helps to bridge the gap between private schools kids and public school ones.
Tolstoy
Posts: 2755
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:25 pm

Re: The tutor proof test

Post by Tolstoy »

quest wrote:My DS is in year 7 and half of the students in his class went to private primary school. His is very clever and not struggling in any subject. But some of the above average public ( LA schools) school kids are struggling in some areas in maths. It is not because they are not clever but because the private school ones have already covered those topics in their primary school and are able to grasp those things faster. There is no way an average kid from very bad primary school is going to pass the eleven plus exam without with the tutoring whether DIY or paid. Tutoring helps to bridge the gap between private schools kids and public school ones.
Quest you have described perfectly what happened to my DSs who went to GS from a school where the maths teaching was poor. My youngest DS is now in a school where they set for maths and I can already see the expectations for English are pitched far higher. Just looking at their suggested reading lists for Y4/5/6 was an eye opener. I went to Grammar myself pre the days of excessive tutoring and yes people struggled to cope even then when GS were less pressured. DC struggle in primary school, many will struggle in Comprehensives. Thankfully we are all very different and therefore there will always be some who excell and some who don't. Far better to teach you DC the value of acceptance of themselves and others despite their failings. This thread makes interesting reading.

http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/ ... =5&t=39181" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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