Crypt change to qualify 800 not 600

[Rachm82]

Nothing gets past you Amber, haha! Tbh my mind is changing as often as the weather at the moment! If Crypt were to offer my dd a place then yes, we would seriously consider it. I just don't think we have a strong enough case or our heart is 100% in it, to go for an appeal. Somehow I don't think 'because we prefer Crypt' is gonna cut it with the panel!

[kenyancowgirl]

It might if you followed up with “why” you prefer it!!

[Lysander]

Hmmm...

I think 800 is too low. thoughts from me:

[edited in the light of information from another thread]

1. Information from other threads shows that a child who is 10th on the Marling waiting list is in the mid 800s for Crypt. This makes it seem likely that all the boys in the 600-800 zone qualified for Marling, and those who wanted grammar school places, in this zone, have already got them. Also, information shows a girl ranked in the early 900s for Crypt got a place at Ribston. So there will be no girls in the 600-800 zone who wanted a grammar place but didn't get one. Therefore any child in this zone will have had 6 months to come to terms with the fact that they missed out on Crypt qualification and psychologically adjust to be happy with the new reality of an opportunity for a place at another excellent school. Out-of-the-blue they get an offer from Crypt waved at them, which they might have leapt at in October but which would require much more of a mental gear-shift to switch to now, particularly as Crypt are now perceived as being less in demand than the other schools.

Putting the cut-off at 800 will not fill the places: with 65 to go the school are assuming that a third of this group will ditch what they've got already. What are Crypt thinking!? All the kids in this group who wanted grammar school have got a place at grammar school. If they were widening their qualification level to include children who'd narrowly missed out on a grammar place, they might then get enough movement to fill the two empty classrooms of kids they were expecting in September. I think this is wildly ambitious. We'll have to see how it pans out: they may be expecting to fill 30 places this way and the rest through non-qualification appeals.

2. This will have a horrible ripple effect on the other schools. Each child comes with a certain amount of funding, and all the schools - not just the grammars - have hideously tight budgets. If the schools can't predict how many pupils they'll have on census day next year (a few weeks into the autumn term) their budgets could get knocked off kilter. It's likely that Marling may lose a small number of pupils to Crypt, which it will regain through waiting lists, and some of the comps may lose larger numbers. If girls move across then Ribston loses pupils, which again will probably ricochet onto the comps eventually, with much more waiting list movement that we usually see. Lots of uncertainty ahead for families - with plenty eventually getting school places that they'd hoped for, but at the cost of budgetary uncertainty for the schools.

Heaven help the 2019 Y7 cohort in deciding what a realistic ranking is! I still think Crypt needs to adopt a non-rank-based system next year to avoid the chaos it's seen this year, and move away from the perception that has been introduced this year - purely as a result of the undersubscription chaos, that it's the least desirable grammar, when it's actually a lovely place.

[Lysander]

Rachm actually I think you have a strong case.

As I said above, I think 800 is too low, and Crypt will struggle to get the numbers. At appeal you have to demonstrate why your daughter should have got in. With a score of 908 and having been offered a place at another grammar, your daughter has demonstrated that she has the ability to thrive at grammar school. The non-qualification argument that I would use (very unusually) is that I believe that Crypt has put the qualification boundary in the wrong place (still). And then say you think your dd would thrive in a co-ed school and Crypt is lovely etc etc.

Having said that, I'm not an appeals expert, I've just become a grammar schools admissions number-crunching nerd. (Eek. How did that happen?)

[Jaethel]

Hmmm...

I think 800 is too low. Three thoughts from me:

1. A cut-off at 800 will skew the intake heavily towards boys. We know that a girl ranking just over 900 on the Crypt test was given a place at Ribston. Therefore all girls who newly qualify for Crypt will already have a grammar school place, if they wanted one. There's something about psychologically adjusting to the reality of what you've got, here, given that for 6 months these girls will have considered themselves not to have qualified for Crypt, most of them will have adjusted their hopes and expectations to their new schools and perhaps now are less likely to shift from an excellent girl's school place that they'd been expecting and hoping for, to a mixed school place that was out of the picture and appears less desirable due to the low uptake.

On the other hand, there will be a number of boys in the 600-800 group who have missed out on grammar school places and are more likely to shift from a comp now the opportunity has arisen. From the comparative rankings people posted here in October, and the figures for children admitted, I think it is the case that (a) all the boys who were given places at STRS also qualified for Crypt, (b) many of the boys who were given places at Marling did not qualify for Crypt, (c) the 600-800 zone contains boys who qualified for Marling but did not get places, (d) we don't know whether there are boys in this zone who didn't qualify for a Marling place, so this is their first shot at grammar school. In any case, boys in the (c) and (d) category seem much more likely to respond to this new opportunity, and some in (b) category will too for travel reasons.

2. Putting the cut-off at 800 will not fill the places: with 65 to go the school are assuming that a third of this group will ditch what they've got already. Given that a third to a half of the group are girls (this is an assumption) and these girls will already have grammar places if they wanted them, Crypt are assuming quite a lot of movement in this small group. I'd be surprised if they managed to fill the spaces quickly, but perhaps they are expecting to fill 30 or so this way and the rest through non-qualification appeals.

3. This will have a horrible ripple effect on the other schools. Each child comes with a certain amount of funding, and all the schools - not just the grammars - have hideously tight budgets. If the schools can't predict how many pupils they'll have on census day next year (a few weeks into the autumn term) their budgets could get knocked off kilter. It's likely that Marling may lose a small number of pupils to Crypt, which it will regain through waiting lists, and some of the comps may lose larger numbers. If girls move across then Ribston loses pupils, which again will probably ricochet onto the comps eventually, with much more waiting list movement that we usually see. Lots of uncertainty ahead for families - with plenty eventually getting school places that they'd hoped for, but at the cost of budgetary uncertainty for the schools.

I've changed my mind, it's 4 thoughts. Heaven help the 2019 Y7 cohort in deciding what a realistic ranking is! I still think Crypt needs to adopt a non-rank-based system next year to avoid the chaos it's seen this year, and move away from the perception that has been introduced this year - purely as a result of the undersubscription chaos, that it's the least desirable grammar, when it's actually a lovely place.

Thank you, Lysander. To me, as someone with a DD who just missed out on a place at SHS we suspect due to the miscalculation at Crypt, your analysis re girls sounds accurate. This decision today, while a sensible one and so welcome for Crypt non-qualifiers and Marling waitlisters (and who I'm very pleased for ), is probably too late for us. But who knows - perhaps there will be some surprises...?

[onthefence]

I suspect that you are right,Lysander, both in positing that 800 is not far enough and that it will skew towards boys (in light of your edit, I think that even 900-950 would skew towards boys). Another poster whose child was offered SHS after reconsideration at 373, also had a rank of 843 for Crypt, which is still below the cut off. There are so many more potential GS places for girls, it would be sensible to go a good deal further than the lowest rank for SHS, given that it is not the least popular girls school. I would guess that anyone thinking of appealing to Crypt - particularly girls if they get their case right - has a strong chance of getting in if they have some academic evidence.

Edited in light of Lysander's edit

[Watermelon8]

I would never teach in a grammar school and I know many talented colleagues who feel the same. Anyone who believes that teaching, the curriculum or other provision is by definition ‘better’ in grammar schools is, I am sorry to say, deluded.

How bizarre then that this forum exists & parents, whether local or many miles away, are falling over themselves to get ds/dd into 1 of the grammar schools

Whilst to some it may feel like this forum represents the real world, the number of parents it represents...and therefore children of those parents, is miniscule compared with the entire cohort. A number of people on here are not here to espouse the virtues of Grammar Schools, either, but to offer a dose of rea;ity to those parents who appear misinformed that it should be a GS education or bust. They are simply schools following the same currciulum as other state schools. They have their fair share of problems, children with problems (actually, potentially a higher proportion in some cases), some poor teachers, some outstanding ones, some good leaders, some poor ones etc etc To believe otherwise is a fallacy.

It was a tongue in cheek comment. I had a great comp education & would happily pick a good comp if we were within catchment. Each child suits a particular school whether that is grammar, comp, smaller indie etc. Grammars aren’t ‘better’ than other schools but they are a better fit for some children. My dc are thriving at gs where it’s cool to do well & work hard. Our nearest comp is not very good so I wouldn’t want them to go there, simple as that.

[Lysander]

Onthefence thank you for that statistic - that makes things even more stark, and interestingly has put the Marling intake this year pretty much on a par with the SHS intake, in terms of where the last child admitted ranked for Crypt. I think in the past, SHS had been seen as harder to get into than Marling, but the squeeze on boys' places due to Crypt under-admitting has made Marling more competitive.

Parents swayed by league tables are unlikely to ditch SHS for Crypt: I suppose it would be only if the journey is a faff: but if they cared about the journey that much they'd probably have chosen Ribston, so less motivation for girls to switch.

[Watermelon8]

Nothing gets past you Amber, haha! Tbh my mind is changing as often as the weather at the moment! If Crypt were to offer my dd a place then yes, we would seriously consider it. I just don't think we have a strong enough case or our heart is 100% in it, to go for an appeal. Somehow I don't think 'because we prefer Crypt' is gonna cut it with the panel!

If you really prefer Crypt, what do you have to lose? It’s definitely worth a shot. Your dd is not that far off their new cut off & as others have said, there will be many who have accepted a place elsewhere & have decided not to appeal so even more chance this year for a successful appeal. Where did your dd initially want to go? From the 1st visits, we decided which schs we preferred. What did she think? They’re both good schs so not really a wrong answer.

[Rachm82]

My dd did really like Crypt. We loved the friendliness and the continuous communication we received from the school. They held activities and numerous open days to make all the girls feel welcome. I was disappointed that she didn't qualify but she didn't seem to fussed. I think she has now resigned herself to the fact she is going to Ribston and seems quite happy with that. Although, if she would have had the choice, it would have been Crypt.