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 Post subject: Re: Money for Grammars
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 10:32 pm 
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Posts: 14800
So send a child to a school where they don't offer the subjects he got 100% in at KS2?

We did not have a child when we moved here and we would have not moved if we'd known what we know now. Every child in a GS condemns 3 to a Secondary Modern and a restricted choice of GCSEs.

He would have done just as well in a comprehensive but we didn't have that choice.


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 Post subject: Re: Money for Grammars
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:07 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:25 pm
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But why can’t the secondary moderns do all sciences? What stops them? In Glos we don’t have secondary moderns so maybe that’s why it’s different here. I’m not having a go but genuinely interested. I just don’t see why grammars adversely affect other schools?


Last edited by Skip on Tue May 15, 2018 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Money for Grammars
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:20 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:45 pm
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When we moved to Buckinghamshire many years ago, one of the (minor) reasons was the reputation for "good schools". At the time we had a baby & no knowledge of the school system other than a vague feeling that grammar schools might be a good thing. Some years later we realised how devisive - very "us & them" for those that passed/didnt. Almost embarrassing to have to admit your child didn't get the magic 121 (one of mine didn't) at the age of 10 on a specific day. By this time we realised that our local Upper had a 5 subject pass rate (before the days when they had to include English & maths) of 35%, with triple science etc not on offer. We were faced with a choice: to try to get our children into the local grammar schools or send them to a failing school. I think any parent who had the means to do so, whatever their ideology would do what we did.
ETA: sorry, thought I had put this on the general thread about this rather than the Gloucestershire one


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 Post subject: Re: Money for Grammars
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:25 am 
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Skip wrote:
But why can’t the secondary moderns do all sciences? What stops them? In Glos we don’t have secondary moderns so maybe that’s why it’s different here. I’m not having a go but genuinely interested. I just don’t see why grammars adversely affect other schools?

They don't have enough children who are capable of triple and often don't run Science A level so staffing tends to be difficult. My local Upper doesn't offer Chemistry or Physics A level so, for my DS who was very able in Science and Maths and ultimately read Engineering, that would have stopped his career before it started.

So for the able who miss the magic '121' on the day their future career choices are limited - there are children with level 6 Maths in some Uppers but only one or two in each school so their needs are challenging to meet in a year group of 180 to 300.


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 Post subject: Re: Money for Grammars
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:08 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:46 pm
Posts: 280
Guest55 wrote:
Skip wrote:
But why can’t the secondary moderns do all sciences? What stops them? In Glos we don’t have secondary moderns so maybe that’s why it’s different here. I’m not having a go but genuinely interested. I just don’t see why grammars adversely affect other schools?

They don't have enough children who are capable of triple and often don't run Science A level so staffing tends to be difficult. My local Upper doesn't offer Chemistry or Physics A level so, for my DS who was very able in Science and Maths and ultimately read Engineering, that would have stopped his career before it started.

So for the able who miss the magic '121' on the day their future career choices are limited - there are children with level 6 Maths in some Uppers but only one or two in each school so their needs are challenging to meet in a year group of 180 to 300.


I disagree somewhat where Gloucestershire is concerned. Yes we have the 7 grammars but we also have a huge number of children travelling to those gs from out of county. Most take more dc from out of county than from within the city! So, I think it’s a bit of an excuse to blame gs for creaming off the top pupils & making the comps poor. My dc’s sch is a large glos primary. Yes, it has a reasonable no. go to grammar but if glos gs really were only for local children then there would be a huge amount more & a massive impact on comps. We, every year, send lots of bright children to the local comps for a no. of reasons - not passing the 11+ high enough due to under prep, not taking the test as prefer the comp, passing for a gs that logistically doesn’t work for the family so don’t take the place etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Money for Grammars
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:13 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:25 pm
Posts: 1857
Watermelon8 wrote:
Guest55 wrote:
Skip wrote:
But why can’t the secondary moderns do all sciences? What stops them? In Glos we don’t have secondary moderns so maybe that’s why it’s different here. I’m not having a go but genuinely interested. I just don’t see why grammars adversely affect other schools?

They don't have enough children who are capable of triple and often don't run Science A level so staffing tends to be difficult. My local Upper doesn't offer Chemistry or Physics A level so, for my DS who was very able in Science and Maths and ultimately read Engineering, that would have stopped his career before it started.

So for the able who miss the magic '121' on the day their future career choices are limited - there are children with level 6 Maths in some Uppers but only one or two in each school so their needs are challenging to meet in a year group of 180 to 300.


I disagree somewhat where Gloucestershire is concerned. Yes we have the 7 grammars but we also have a huge number of children travelling to those gs from out of county. Most take more dc from out of county than from within the city! So, I think it’s a bit of an excuse to blame gs for creaming off the top pupils & making the comps poor. My dc’s sch is a large glos primary. Yes, it has a reasonable no. go to grammar but if glos gs really were only for local children then there would be a huge amount more & a massive impact on comps. We, every year, send lots of bright children to the local comps for a no. of reasons - not passing the 11+ high enough due to under prep, not taking the test as prefer the comp, passing for a gs that logistically doesn’t work for the family so don’t take the place etc.


WM is the the 'royal we'?? It sound as if you send them personally?? :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Money for Grammars
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:19 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:46 pm
Posts: 280
stroudydad wrote:
Watermelon8 wrote:
Guest55 wrote:
But why can’t the secondary moderns do all sciences? What stops them? In Glos we don’t have secondary moderns so maybe that’s why it’s different here. I’m not having a go but genuinely interested. I just don’t see why grammars adversely affect other schools?


I disagree somewhat where Gloucestershire is concerned. Yes we have the 7 grammars but we also have a huge number of children travelling to those gs from out of county. Most take more dc from out of county than from within the city! So, I think it’s a bit of an excuse to blame gs for creaming off the top pupils & making the comps poor. My dc’s sch is a large glos primary. Yes, it has a reasonable no. go to grammar but if glos gs really were only for local children then there would be a huge amount more & a massive impact on comps. We, every year, send lots of bright children to the local comps for a no. of reasons - not passing the 11+ high enough due to under prep, not taking the test as prefer the comp, passing for a gs that logistically doesn’t work for the family so don’t take the place etc.


WM is the the 'royal we'?? It sound as if you send them personally?? :-)


Let’s just say I know as involved with sch then :lol: :P


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 Post subject: Re: Money for Grammars
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 12:58 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:52 pm
Posts: 11
Please can somebody just explain how the local education standards are dragged down by grammar schools? Reading through the posts on this thread I see I am not the only one who can't understand this opinion/statistic?

I'm sorry to all those who may be tired of the subject because it has appeared before on other threads - but you are not obliged to respond - in the same way as you can turn a tv over to avoid a repeat or not read a magazine rerunning a feature that has been done before. There will be new members who might be interested and who like me haven't trawled through all the historic posts to see if they're repeating anything....


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 Post subject: Re: Money for Grammars
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 3:46 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:52 pm
Posts: 29
Hi Boris,
I think the reasoning behind this theory is that if grammar schools cream off the highest achievers, the exam results for the comprehensive schools won't be as high so they will not appear to be such good schools. Obviously that doesn't take the "value added" measure into account. But I can't think of any other viable argument. I'm sure others will be able to help!
Personally I am a fan of streaming (and grammar schools are effectively a form of this as they form the top set). I have experienced this at both ends - I was in the higher sets for things I was good at and the bottom set for maths. The teachers knew where to pitch the class as everyone was at a similar level, and for maths we had an amazing teacher who explained everything in such a way that we could understand! (Prior to asking if I could move down I used to stare out of the window as it was all going over my head!). Some of the comps we visited did do streaming for some subjects but it doesn't seem to be universally popular.


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 Post subject: Re: Money for Grammars
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 3:50 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:21 pm
Posts: 14800
You can't have comps where there are GS as you won't have the full range of ability.

For every child that goes to a GS at least three others don't. In Bucks these three then attend a school which often does not offer the range of GCSEs and the 10% who got three level 5s in the past have not been able to access, for example, triple science.


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