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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:32 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:30 pm
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I was hoping someone can help, I'd really like to understand what my son's results mean.

Pates - 350's
STR - 190's
Marlings - 160's
Crypt - 320's

I really was hoping he would get into Pates and the fact he didn't is upsetting, but what's extremely extremely frustrating is not having that closure that you get on any other exam where you can say well I only got X% when I needed to get Y% to pass or I got X% on this section when I needed to get Y% on that section . For example I could have closed this chapter off by just knowing ok he didn't do as well on the verbal section, but with just getting rankings I don't really know anything.

I can imagine there are so many other parents feel the same way. So if anyone know's how to get some meaningful information on results from rankings that would be much appreciated.

Thanks KKK.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:42 pm 
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If you have a look at this thread the first post tell you what rankings were offered last year. viewtopic.php?f=16&t=59171

I think that is the extent of the information you’re given.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:21 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:52 pm
Posts: 253
Hi KKK. I'll try.
The reason for the big difference in scores between Crypt/ Pates and Marling/ STR is that the first 2 are mixed so the list of children being ranked was roughly twice as long as for Marling/ STR.
Pates also rank differently with a minimum pass mark for each section but your son was well outside the qualification zone of 230 anyway so I wouldn't worry about that.
Each school has 150 places and will go down the rankings until they have filled them all. Most of the Top 150 for one school are also in the Top 150 for another. For example, my son, who just missed out on Pates too, is in the Top 150 for STR, Crypt and Marling. But on Allocation Day in March, he'll only take up a place at one school, so the others will then invite the 151st candidate.... and so on. In this way, schools go much lower than 150.
With your son's rankings, he's sure to get a place at whichever of the three you choose. And this is what you should focus on. He's done incredibly well and they are all great schools. Go and visit and see which you and he prefer.
As for his score, you won't know what it is or how it breaks down. All you know is that out of approximately 2000 children who shared their result with Crypt, he did better than all but approx 320 of them (both boys and girls). You can be really proud of him and look forward to the next 5 years at whichever you choose of 3 great grammars. We too really wanted Pates but it wasn't to be. We'll probably go for Crypt instead as we'd like a co-ed school.
Hope that helps.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:39 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:05 pm
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I know they say that they won’t give out marks for the papers, but surely with GDPR being the way it is these days, they couldn’t refuse if you asked for info that’s about your own child?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:43 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:53 pm
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Hi KKK,

Those are perfectly good scores - well done to your DS. Whilst not getting a qualifying score for Pates is obviously disappointing those scores would seem to be good enough (based on previous years) to guarantee a place at whichever one of the others you decide to go for.

As noted you have to compare like with like - Marling and STR are single sex and hence a smaller overall set of candidates, and whilst lots of folks have shared with everyone there isn't a one to one match in the lists - so the scores are somewhat lined up but not exactly. Pates and Crypt are mixed and hence more have applied, but you are overlapping two similarly shaped mark distribution graphs - hence the combined numbers at the same point in the curve are larger but are essentially reflect the same relative position in that larger set.

There's a lot of talk about Pates wanting a "pass" mark in all sections, but from your marks and others that have posted detailed positition info the rankings seem to be more or less in line quite a way down (allowing for those that have only applied to Pates) - having a good overall mark but very poor in one section would in theory push you down the Pates list, but the only "anomaly" I've seen this year (and I admit I've not read all the threads completely) is someone who said they were top 150 for the other schools but down at 900 for Pates. So based on that I'd say your DS has not got a specifically low mark in any section - though we'd need far more sample points to see if there are any specific "reversals" in the list compared to the other schools to really work out where that "pass everything" rules has actually come into play.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:42 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:39 pm
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Hi KKK, the percentage score you're after doesn't really exist; if 349 kids got 99% in the test and your son got 98% or 1% it doesn't matter if he was within 1% or 97% if he was next in the ranking.

What you can tell him is that pretty much everyone who takes the 11+ shares with Pates. So he was about 350 out of however many took the test (2500?).

To get a pretty much nailed-on place at STR is a big achievement, so well done to him.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:12 am 
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jvb16 wrote:
I know they say that they won’t give out marks for the papers, but surely with GDPR being the way it is these days, they couldn’t refuse if you asked for info that’s about your own child?


This is from the ICO website - I think it's aimed at GCSE/A Level students but I assume it applies to all exams:

Quote:
Can I find out more about my exam results?

The GDPR gives you the right to see information held about you. This means you can request information about you and your exam performance, including:

    your mark;
    comments written by the examiner; and
    minutes of any examination appeals panels.

But it does not give you the right to copies of your answers to exam questions.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:16 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:39 pm
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streathammum wrote:
jvb16 wrote:
I know they say that they won’t give out marks for the papers, but surely with GDPR being the way it is these days, they couldn’t refuse if you asked for info that’s about your own child?


This is from the ICO website - I think it's aimed at GCSE/A Level students but I assume it applies to all exams:

Quote:
Can I find out more about my exam results?

The GDPR gives you the right to see information held about you. This means you can request information about you and your exam performance, including:

    your mark;
    comments written by the examiner; and
    minutes of any examination appeals panels.

But it does not give you the right to copies of your answers to exam questions.


They also won't tell you anyone else's score - you'll have to persuade someone who successfully got in to get their scores from the ICO as well.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:17 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:59 am
Posts: 2512
There is information here https://www.cem.org/privacy-notice


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:19 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:52 pm
Posts: 253
AndyM wrote:
Hi KKK, the percentage score you're after doesn't really exist; if 349 kids got 99% in the test and your son got 98% or 1% it doesn't matter if he was within 1% or 97% if he was next in the ranking.

What you can tell him is that pretty much everyone who takes the 11+ shares with Pates. So he was about 350 out of however many took the test (2500?).

To get a pretty much nailed-on place at STR is a big achievement, so well done to him.


Andy, that's not quite right (though I totally echo your comment about it being a big achievement!).

The Crypt ranking is a more accurate reflection of your child's overall score than the Pates one.

Firstly, only 1800 shared with Pates, whereas over 2000 shared with Crypt.

Secondly, Crypt rank simply on standardised score, whereas Pates apply a 'minimum pass mark' for each of the 3 sections (discussed on another thread), so you end up with kids who have lower Crypt rankings (outside the Top 150) but are actually inside the Top 150 for Pates. There is one example on this forum (Top 150 for Pates, 167 for Crypt), and another who ranked somewhere around 180 for Pates but around 240 for Crypt. These children obviously achieved the 'minimum pass mark' on all 3 sections but overall, scored lower than the children in the Crypt Top 150.

Pates are obviously looking for children who are equally strong at Maths, English and NVR and don't want those who are a whizz at say NVR and English but not quite as good at maths (while still being really good at it!).

You can probably gather from this comment that I am disappointed in the way Pates do their ranking because if it had been simply on standardised score, DS would have got a place - but it is what it is! At least we understand it - and that's what this thread is about.


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