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 Post subject: Pate's method of ranking
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:55 pm 
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I don't know if I am worrying unnecessarily but I was wondering how the Pate's "pass mark in each section" method affects the rankings. There seem to be quite a few "surprises" at my DC's primary school with who got in the top 150 and conversely, on this forum there seem to be very bright children who should have got a place based on ability but didn't.
Also concerned that if the general consensus about this year's paper being easy is correct, then this will have had an impact too on those children who were selected and those who didn't.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:23 pm 
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Bambi 175 wrote:
I don't know if I am worrying unnecessarily but I was wondering how the Pate's "pass mark in each section" method affects the rankings. There seem to be quite a few "surprises" at my DC's primary school with who got in the top 150 and conversely, on this forum there seem to be very bright children who should have got a place based on ability but didn't.
Also concerned that if the general consensus about this year's paper being easy is correct, then this will have had an impact too on those children who were selected and those who didn't.


Not sure why you are worrying about it? (I mean that in the nicest way possible) DCs either get a ranking or not. There is nothing anyone can achieve by knowing any more than we already do about their method of ranking which is that they set a certain pass mark for each section. What that pass mark is and how it impacts on rankings at Pate's or elsewhere is largely irrelevant as the rankings are done, set and out there?

No worries of this kind will make any impact in appeal or anything like that. What's done is done.

Many children who rank in the top 150 for Pates also do so for the other grammars, others do not.

The Pate's system is so because they want children who are "all rounders" as it is perfectly possible to get a very high ranking for the other schools simply be being ace at English and NVRs, but not so great at Maths for example (that would have been me!)

I am not sure what your motivation for this post is, but I hope this helps in some small way :)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:50 pm 
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I think you also have to bear in mind it’s not just about how bright a child may be. Some kids thrive in exam conditions and others wilt. Then there’s the mistakes they may make under pressure like not putting answers in the right boxes or missing whole pages out. And this is before you get into exam techniques which some know and ‘get’ and some don’t.

When my DC’s did test both thought it was hard whereas most said it was easy which was unnerving. I also think if one person says it’s easy others follow so not to look stupid. So I doubt it was easier this year.

Also interesting if Pates do look for all rounders as my DC and friends who are now in yr9 clearly have a very wide range of ability in maths, English etc. So it doesn’t last.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:36 pm 
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We were talking the other day about how it's a bit like all kids running a marathon. Some children will have been coached to a high level with training on speed, endurance etc. Some might have been a long to the local club and done a few practice runs. Some just turn up and have natural talent and others are in between. Then on the day some might trip, others feel inspired by a section they like etc.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:38 am 
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I actually like the Pates method of ranking as I think it does play to strong all-rounders rather than particular 'geniuses' in one area.
At my DD's primary school there were clear examples of that this year where particularly strong mathematicians have ranked lower for Pates than some of the others who are strong across the board (They have still done very well for the other Grammars). But those that have got into Pates, aren't necessarily the children that were expected for exactly this reason.
I accept, as some have pointed out, that this will change over time with every child developing differently, and the margins and cut offs are very fine. But they've got to base it on something.
My eldest is at Pates (my second has a good chance of joining her next year) and she seemingly is coping in all subjects.
Not sure that particularly helps..... more of an observation! :D


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:29 pm 
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Bambi 175 wrote:
on this forum there seem to be very bright children who should have got a place based on ability but didn't.
Also concerned that if the general consensus about this year's paper being easy is correct, then this will have had an impact too on those children who were selected and those who didn't.


I don't think any of us are in a position to say who should have got a place based on ability because there are no absolutes in the marking system. And the 11 plus isn't all about ability in any case, as someone mentioned further down the thread in the marathon analogy.

I also think that it is dangerous to assume one year is easy. I think that whether a child judges a paper as easy is just as likely to be driven by relief that it is all over as anything more quantitative. My dd came out of the test saying was hard then I looked on here to see all the comments that it was easy, lost heart and swore I would never look on here again :roll: , and then we were all surprised when she did very well. It turns out what she meant by 'it was hard' was 'I have never concentrated so hard' but I didn't ask the right questions at the time to get to the truth of it.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:30 pm 
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My daughter was told by 8 other children, both at school and clubs she attends that the test was 'easy'
This worried my daughter as she had said I answered all the questions, only had a few 'educated guesses' but it definitely wasn't easy!

7 of those 8 didn't pass at all, the 8th scraped a high qualifying score for Ribston only.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:36 pm 
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Interesting because all children who sat the test at my DC primary got an offer of somewhere - as far as I know, no one didn't pass at all. And quite a few of those are not in the "top" group. Even their parents were surprised! My DC still maintains it was easy and so did the child at his school who had no tuition, and yes they passed as well. I guess we will never know.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:41 pm 
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I guess some schools may have covered more of the maths etc than others. From talking to a parent of a child at a private school they definitely do more within school. My DD came out feeling it was easier than the mocks with a few guesses, but I know others who said the same and only got very low rankings at Marling. Some tests will play to the strength of some children, I know my DD prefers some types of NVR over others


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:45 pm 
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My understanding of the reason behind Pate’s wanting each section to be passed is to even up the numbers of girls vs boys. Previously they were quite boy heavy with a lot of maths ‘geniuses.’ (genii? :) ) They think the school works better all round with more of a balance of genders and those with good arts abilities as well as sciences.


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