How to choose?
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Could we have some perspective here? Just remember Pate's is a STATE school!!!
There can be no comparison (apart from exam results of course) with Cheltenham Ladies College which is one of the most expensive public schools in the country. Obviously their facilities will not match up. Why should they? We are not paying thousands of pounds a year for the honour of being there. They are hoping to attract pupils worldwide, and are competing with the best of the private schools.
I think it really comes down to whether you want an 'exclusive' education or not. If you want single sex, then girls grammars schools in Gloucester or Stroud will do the trick. But if you want to mix with a certain social strata (ie those who can afford private school fees) and want to lead the lifestyle that they enjoy, then CLC is for you. A scholarship may ease the burden but there will not be many 'ordinary' girls there.
Pates will offer a social/ethnic mix with very good exam results. It is a very happy school. They do offer visits to the school on a working day I think, once the results are out. But, to be honest, there is really no need for them to go touting for business. It is a school, not a business.
There can be no comparison (apart from exam results of course) with Cheltenham Ladies College which is one of the most expensive public schools in the country. Obviously their facilities will not match up. Why should they? We are not paying thousands of pounds a year for the honour of being there. They are hoping to attract pupils worldwide, and are competing with the best of the private schools.
I think it really comes down to whether you want an 'exclusive' education or not. If you want single sex, then girls grammars schools in Gloucester or Stroud will do the trick. But if you want to mix with a certain social strata (ie those who can afford private school fees) and want to lead the lifestyle that they enjoy, then CLC is for you. A scholarship may ease the burden but there will not be many 'ordinary' girls there.
Pates will offer a social/ethnic mix with very good exam results. It is a very happy school. They do offer visits to the school on a working day I think, once the results are out. But, to be honest, there is really no need for them to go touting for business. It is a school, not a business.
I think you've hit the nail on the head! What appeals to one child doesn't appeal to another, and that's why the choice of school is so personal. My daughter already loves cooking and sewing and the chance to do the things she enjoys alongside academic subjects really appeals, whereas the thought of joining the CCF or having to use a climbing wall is not so appealing!proud mum x2 wrote:HI all, as a Pate's parent I have to say that it is a fabulous school, and has lots to offer girls. My DD is not interested in cookery or needlework,(Basic skills can be passed on by her mother if need be!) so the lack of facilities in that area has not been noticed!
She does, however love the climbing wall and the all weather pitch, the art dept is second to none, the atmosphere and friendliness of the school is one of its strengths, as is the CCF (combined Cadet Force) which in itself is a rarity in a state school.
The decision is yours as a parent, I'm sure the school will manage to fill your DD's space if you choose to go elsewhere!
So EllenH go and have another look and choose for your daughter the place that she feels happy with and where she can fulfill her potential.
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highsideuk
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:53 am
We as parents must face up to the responsibility of choosing the right school. We are the ones with the wisdom and experience (hopefully).
We are the ones with the perspective on life.
We are the ones who perhaps pay the school fees (in EllenH's case) and have any idea how these will affect the family.
Our roughly-11-year-old darling offspring are hopelessly unqualified to make this decision. They will take a dislike/liking to a place for entirely irrelevant and/or transient reasons. What do you expect? They are children - and young ones at that.
I'm not suggesting you should simply ignore your child and pack them off to a school that they have told you they hate.
That is the other part of our responsibility. We not only have to pick the right school, we have to be clever enough get our children "on board" with the decision and make sure they at the very least accept it!
I think those that effectively let their children make the choice should ask themselves if they would consider it reasonable to let their child choose the next car the family bought? I don't suppose any of them would.
Yet which is it more important to get right?
EllenH is doing the right thing finding out as much as she can, and all she has to do then is persuade her daughter that Mum knows best!
Our job. Our responsibility.
We are the ones with the perspective on life.
We are the ones who perhaps pay the school fees (in EllenH's case) and have any idea how these will affect the family.
Our roughly-11-year-old darling offspring are hopelessly unqualified to make this decision. They will take a dislike/liking to a place for entirely irrelevant and/or transient reasons. What do you expect? They are children - and young ones at that.
I'm not suggesting you should simply ignore your child and pack them off to a school that they have told you they hate.
That is the other part of our responsibility. We not only have to pick the right school, we have to be clever enough get our children "on board" with the decision and make sure they at the very least accept it!
I think those that effectively let their children make the choice should ask themselves if they would consider it reasonable to let their child choose the next car the family bought? I don't suppose any of them would.
Yet which is it more important to get right?
EllenH is doing the right thing finding out as much as she can, and all she has to do then is persuade her daughter that Mum knows best!
Our job. Our responsibility.
Luckily for us, our criteria, whilst somewhat different from DD's, gave the same result as hers. She'd learnt that from looking at one secondaty school that some of her Y7 friends are at - she thought it was going to be great, but in fact she could see that it would not suit her (and we also thought the same way).highsideuk wrote:EllenH is doing the right thing finding out as much as she can, and all she has to do then is persuade her daughter that Mum knows best!
Our job. Our responsibility.
Capers
Thank you to everybody who has taken the time and trouble to help me with my dilemma.
My thoughts at the moment are these:
Unfortunately, we only put down Pates on the grammar list, so the choice is really between CLC and Pates.
Mum3 has a point about Pates being a state school and so we shouldn't expect private school privileges ; however, it is heavily subsidised by the Pates' foundation and so is able to provide many facilities/options that the private sector does.
HighsideUK quite rightly points out that the decision should be mine - and I should not be swayed by DD's opinion. I totally buy into this and thank you for reminding me and putting some perspective into the decision. Hopefully it will be something she thanks me for when she's older!
One big difference are the surroundings - and I guess thats where the fees go. To me however, they are irrelevant and I wouldn't pay for the "luxury" of e.g. the new drama dept etc.etc.
But with regard to results and outcomes - which matter most to all of us ( in addition to childrens' happiness of course ) - why is it that Pates' gets worse results on average even though they take the cream of the children? Is their "value added" lower than that of CLC? Do girls do better in an only girls' school? How well do they all fare on leaving school?
Still confused - maybe our visits to both schools next week might help with the decision.
My thoughts at the moment are these:
Unfortunately, we only put down Pates on the grammar list, so the choice is really between CLC and Pates.
Mum3 has a point about Pates being a state school and so we shouldn't expect private school privileges ; however, it is heavily subsidised by the Pates' foundation and so is able to provide many facilities/options that the private sector does.
HighsideUK quite rightly points out that the decision should be mine - and I should not be swayed by DD's opinion. I totally buy into this and thank you for reminding me and putting some perspective into the decision. Hopefully it will be something she thanks me for when she's older!
One big difference are the surroundings - and I guess thats where the fees go. To me however, they are irrelevant and I wouldn't pay for the "luxury" of e.g. the new drama dept etc.etc.
But with regard to results and outcomes - which matter most to all of us ( in addition to childrens' happiness of course ) - why is it that Pates' gets worse results on average even though they take the cream of the children? Is their "value added" lower than that of CLC? Do girls do better in an only girls' school? How well do they all fare on leaving school?
Still confused - maybe our visits to both schools next week might help with the decision.
That is a good question about the Pate's results when they cream off the best children, and I would like to know the answer too!!
Several of my children's contemporaries who didn't pass for the school, got better GCSE results than theirs (on paper at least, but might not be in such academic subjects). Having said that, there are plenty, in fact, the vast majority who get all As at GCSE.
But I do think getting good GCSE results generally is down to a combination of being bright AND working hard. Girls do tend to work harder and enjoy coursework a lot more than boys, so could be an argument for all girls school.
A level results are pretty good at Pate's and about 25 I think got Oxbridge places last year. All get their first or second choice of university (all Russell Group ones).
I would imagine the main difference would be in class sizes and one to one help the pupils receive in the private sector.
Several of my children's contemporaries who didn't pass for the school, got better GCSE results than theirs (on paper at least, but might not be in such academic subjects). Having said that, there are plenty, in fact, the vast majority who get all As at GCSE.
But I do think getting good GCSE results generally is down to a combination of being bright AND working hard. Girls do tend to work harder and enjoy coursework a lot more than boys, so could be an argument for all girls school.
A level results are pretty good at Pate's and about 25 I think got Oxbridge places last year. All get their first or second choice of university (all Russell Group ones).
I would imagine the main difference would be in class sizes and one to one help the pupils receive in the private sector.
There is another option. Put down another grammar on your options form. You will not get it because you've not had the 11+ results sent there. Then, after allocation day, you could appeal for that school. If you have a score that would have got your child in, then you stand a better chance of winning.EllenH wrote:Unfortunately, we only put down Pates on the grammar list, so the choice is really between CLC and Pates.
Capers
I think I can now throw some light on this question - having visited Pates again.
We have been twice now, and on neither occasion did DD1 nor I warm to it. The place was fairly shambolic, no rules apply, its all very laissez faire, the girls wear more make up that seen behind the Estee Lauder counter, the common room full of boys with gelled hair playing cards with loud music blaring, really sullen looking teachers, none of whom had sufficient manners to say good morning or ask if they could be of help etc. etc.
We were shown round by year 7s who had to keep referring to their maps to find where to go - saw nothing of the labs and refectory, dismayed to see the musical instruments having to be locked up (!), pretty poor art work displayed on the walls, children doing combined sciences in the early years rather than individual ones, over 30 children per class.
My general feeling was that if the place was run better, with some more discipline and management, their results would far exceed those that they actually get. The potential of those children that enter in Year 7 ( almost by definition the brightest in the area) is squandered - or at least not optimised. This is why CLC manages to turn away very few girls (9 last year compared to 780 at pates) and still get better results.
So our minds are made up and theres a spare place at Pates going begging...
We have been twice now, and on neither occasion did DD1 nor I warm to it. The place was fairly shambolic, no rules apply, its all very laissez faire, the girls wear more make up that seen behind the Estee Lauder counter, the common room full of boys with gelled hair playing cards with loud music blaring, really sullen looking teachers, none of whom had sufficient manners to say good morning or ask if they could be of help etc. etc.
We were shown round by year 7s who had to keep referring to their maps to find where to go - saw nothing of the labs and refectory, dismayed to see the musical instruments having to be locked up (!), pretty poor art work displayed on the walls, children doing combined sciences in the early years rather than individual ones, over 30 children per class.
My general feeling was that if the place was run better, with some more discipline and management, their results would far exceed those that they actually get. The potential of those children that enter in Year 7 ( almost by definition the brightest in the area) is squandered - or at least not optimised. This is why CLC manages to turn away very few girls (9 last year compared to 780 at pates) and still get better results.
So our minds are made up and theres a spare place at Pates going begging...
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MarkyBoy1972
- Posts: 50
- Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:18 pm
Think your post will create a lot of replies Ellen!
Whilst I have not visited and so have only a limited right to reply, I feel that there are likely to be some fantastic things about the school that either you did not see or which you have chosen not to include in your post.
Were there any positives that you could add to give some balance and perspective?
I am sure the school has a framework of rules and acceptable behaviour. The school also has some very good results at both GCSE and A level and a massive number of people sit the entrance exam there - these are likely to have been people who have also visited the school and were suitably happy and impressed with what they saw.
Also worth remembering that every school will have elements or aspects to it that do not sit comfortably with us ... but these have to be taken in context. Whenever a large group of people work or spend time together there will always be things that we, as individuals, like and dislike - as you found in the common room!
For this particular decision you will need to decided what your child needs and what is best for them. I am also sure that you will find some negatives at CLC ...
And great news for anyone just outside the top 120 at Pates!
Whilst I have not visited and so have only a limited right to reply, I feel that there are likely to be some fantastic things about the school that either you did not see or which you have chosen not to include in your post.
Were there any positives that you could add to give some balance and perspective?
I am sure the school has a framework of rules and acceptable behaviour. The school also has some very good results at both GCSE and A level and a massive number of people sit the entrance exam there - these are likely to have been people who have also visited the school and were suitably happy and impressed with what they saw.
Also worth remembering that every school will have elements or aspects to it that do not sit comfortably with us ... but these have to be taken in context. Whenever a large group of people work or spend time together there will always be things that we, as individuals, like and dislike - as you found in the common room!
For this particular decision you will need to decided what your child needs and what is best for them. I am also sure that you will find some negatives at CLC ...
And great news for anyone just outside the top 120 at Pates!
Ellen I have to laugh at your perspective of Pates.
My daughter has had a hugely different experience and every time I visit - be it for the recent open evenings, for Jesus Christ Superstar a few weeks back, for the Charity Concert a month or so ago, parents evening, etc etc - I am always impressed by the staff the children and the sheer amount of talent within one building.
Pates has been my number one choice precisely because they do not focus on exam results but on the whole package. I know that my children will do very well academically and I know that they would achieve those results whatever school I chose. What I also know is that at pates they get so much more. The focus is not on results but on individuals. On each child reaching their potential - as an individual - and not their natural intelligence being exploited for the benefit of league tables.
Just because my children are bright does not mean that they don't listen to music when relaxing, follow fashion etc etc. Because these children are top of their peer group doesnt make them any less "normal" and for that as a parent I am extremely grateful! If people think that Pates is a school full of broing "boffins" they obviously have no idea!!
I truly hope that CLC lives up to your high expectations - Pates certainly more than meets mine - and I'm sure also the parent whose child has been moved up the list by your daughters choice.
My daughter has had a hugely different experience and every time I visit - be it for the recent open evenings, for Jesus Christ Superstar a few weeks back, for the Charity Concert a month or so ago, parents evening, etc etc - I am always impressed by the staff the children and the sheer amount of talent within one building.
Pates has been my number one choice precisely because they do not focus on exam results but on the whole package. I know that my children will do very well academically and I know that they would achieve those results whatever school I chose. What I also know is that at pates they get so much more. The focus is not on results but on individuals. On each child reaching their potential - as an individual - and not their natural intelligence being exploited for the benefit of league tables.
Just because my children are bright does not mean that they don't listen to music when relaxing, follow fashion etc etc. Because these children are top of their peer group doesnt make them any less "normal" and for that as a parent I am extremely grateful! If people think that Pates is a school full of broing "boffins" they obviously have no idea!!
I truly hope that CLC lives up to your high expectations - Pates certainly more than meets mine - and I'm sure also the parent whose child has been moved up the list by your daughters choice.
