Parmiters or Habs Boys?

[CoolMum5]

I think things are getting unnecessarily heated on this topic but then - school choices for our dear, little darlings is undoubtedly an emotive subject - and quite rightly so. We all want to believe that we're making the best choice for our children and the next seven years are very important indeed.

As a teacher and an 11+ coach, I can confirm that none of the papers for the grammars/partially selective schools comes close in terms of difficulty to those the children take at the super selective indies like Habs, MTS, NLCS or even St Helen's. That is not to say that the other schools are less worthy and I always advise choosing a school based on your own knowledge of your child together with advice from the teachers/tutors that know them best. A very academic school will not suit all children and not everone can thrive in a super-competitive environment. Indeed, I raised this issue when we met the Head at Habs and he confirmed that the more modern view is that good pastoral care and a supportive environment is more effective than a highly pressurised system. We decided not to send our DS to QE boys, for example, because we felt that this school was far too regimental and would not suit him at all - but we know many parents who are happy with this school. The advantages of the super-selectives is that it's like sending your child to a school full of G&T kids which means, if they themselves fall into this category they will probably feel more comfortable and be able to make friends more easily.

I do think it's very important not to make other people feel inferior about their school choice and certainly - this shouldn't be a forum for the My School's Better Than Your School Brigade . Each to his/her own and may all your children be happy and successful in their new schools come September. xx

[2Girlsmum]

I think things are getting unnecessarily heated on this topic but then - school choices for our dear, little darlings is undoubtedly an emotive subject - and quite rightly so. We all want to believe that we're making the best choice for our children and the next seven years are very important indeed.

As a teacher and an 11+ coach, I can confirm that none of the papers for the grammars/partially selective schools comes close in terms of difficulty to those the children take at the super selective indies like Habs, MTS, NLCS or even St Helen's.

Maybe not the general level of Grammar School exams across England, but I think that there are a number of parents, past and present, on this forum whose children have failed to secure a place at the Barnet/Latymer selectives and who have received multiple offers from the schools you name.

My dd sat the Latymer and St Michaels tests (she scored 13th place at St Michael's and was in the top 180 at Latymer), and we basically worked through ALL the English and Maths papers we could find. The NLCS papers were easier, as were Greenwich, Emanuel, and Merchant Taylor (though their English was comparable). The hardest of the free online Indie past papers were the Habs Boys MATHS (not English). These were on a par with tests dd sat, and in her opinion compared in difficulty to the six Latymer past Maths papers. I was lucky to have been sent all the Habs Maths papers from 2000 onwards, and we covered all of them. In GLA/Nfer papers her score was 48-49/50 and she was whizzing through Bond 11-12+ tests. Her teacher gave her a L6 paper to test her ability as she scored 100% in her maths assessment at school L5a. In both Latymer and Habs her score was equal at around 45/50, and although the style was slightly different the knowledge required was comparable.

Please be aware of the difficulty faced by parents in North London achieving a place at Grammar. In many parts of England a pass is 55%+. The Super-selectives in Kent require about 75%+. In North London under 85/90% and you have NO chance of a place. The number of applicants for Latymer this year was over 1700 for 180 places. I believe the ratio of applicants to places is similar at QE Boys and HBS, and it is only less at St. Michael's due to entrance criteria.

Looking at league tables Habs and Merchant Taylor are not in the Telegraph 100 GCSE results, whilst St Michael's is no.7, QE Boys no.9, Latymer no.10 and HBS no.21.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/le ... chool.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A level results are: NLCS no.18, St Michael's no. 29, MT no.42, QE Boys no.45, Harrow no.70.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/le ... chool.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Food for thought

[CoolMum5]

Read the caveat - PLEASE NOTE: Independent schools score zero (or very low scores) if they enter all or most pupils for alternative qualifications, some of which have not been fully accredited by the Government. This includes some International GCSEs. All independent school figures should be read with caution.


As a teacher, I know how to read the tables - see also MTS Stephen Wright's views on league tables (on the school's website) and I can find as many different league tables to show that Habs and MTS out rank all of the schools mentioned. League tables must be read with caution because the results can vary greatly depending on what exactly is being taken into account (including things like value add scores).

[herty]

It all sounds like it has worked out excellently - Pushy Dad has got the schools for his kids he would have preferred as he thinks grammar schools are not good enough for his kids - and the places at Parmiter's have gone to children who do want them. (And who could not afford the alternatives in most cases, unlike Pushy Dad.)

Sounds like a win-win situation all round.

Not sure it helps the OP that much - unless the polarisation of opinions helps to crystallise his/her views?

By the way, I congratulate you all on your astonishingly musical children! My DD is about to do her grade 2 and I shall be exceedingly pleased if she passes.

[CoolMum5]

By the way, I congratulate you all on your astonishingly musical children! My DD is about to do her grade 2 and I shall be exceedingly pleased if she passes.

LOL - you funny xx

[herty]

No, I mean it - I really will be proud.

Fortunately, I do not mix in such august musical circles as this in real life, and so regard grade 2 as quite respectable - it's 2 grades more than I ever managed. You must all be incredibly talented (or Chinese Tiger-style parents like the book) - I think I prefer the v v talented assumption.

Lucky kids - music can bring a lot of joy, and I hope they all have fun playing their instruments.

[KS10]

I know what you mean, herty. It's easy to forget that some of our DC are doing better than we ever did. Only yesterday I was reading the feedback DS got for his last grade in an attempt to get him to focus on some of his weaker areas. Unfortunately, neither he nor I actually knew for sure what it meant. Something about communication and interpretation but as I have never played an instrument in my life ...

[CoolMum5]

Seriously you guys crack me up! Anyway, I just wanted to say that I think that Parmiters, DAO, HBS and so on are great schools and I am certain that any child would do well there (with a bit of effort, obviously ). Herty, Grade 2 is no mean feat so well done to your DD when she passes! My DS is certainly musical but doesn't appear in any hurry to race through the grades and we've never pushed him. His best friend, however, is studying for her Grade 6 (piano) and Grade 5 (violin). Personally, I don't compare my child to others and we are all very proud of his friend who is a delightful, happy little girl for all her cleverness. My DS is very pleased for his friend and we applaud this. There's too much negative competitivenessand sometimes and it becomes more about the parents' insecurities than the kid's achievements, if you ask me...

[Wanner]

Hi,

to return to the original poster's original query...

We were in exactly the same situation as you this time last year, with offers from Parmiter's, Habs boys, and St Albans. It was a very difficult decision. We had originally applied to the indy schools as a plan B - Parmiter's was what we had always wanted. But the Indy schools are most alluring, and with the later exam times are uppermost in your mind - it's a while since the state school open evenings/afternoons in October, and DS had spent a most enjoyable time at St Albans in January. I don't know how the timings work this year, but last year we had the private school offers in a few days before the state school allocations. We went back to both Habs and St Albans for another visit with DS. We had pretty much made up our mind which one of them we would go for if Parmiter's didn't come up. And then DS got his Parmiter's place.

One thing a friend of mine suggested was to go, if possible, and view both schools at the end of the school day. How do the kids behave when they're on the way home? I wasn't able to do that last year, having another DC to pick up, but it is a good idea, if you can do it.

Another poster asked, which school would you feel saddest about giving up? I think that's a very good test. Although I liked many of the schools we visited (DAO was no 2 on our list, and I was most impressed with their whole admissions process - made me like the school more and more. DS would have gained a place there had we ranked it higher, but...) the only one I felt really, really sad (as in, close to tears driving home after the open evening we went to in Y6 because it felt so much of a long shot and I was convinced I would never take DS back there again) about not getting a place at was Parmiter's. I think that was what decided it for me. The other schools were great, in many ways, but just didn't feel as good a fit.

So now he's been there half a year, what do I think now? Do I regret passing up Habs or St Albans? No, is the answer, despite the fact that it felt like a momentous decision at the time. I have been more than pleased with Parmiter's. Academically, the banding system seems to work really well, so that, for instance, maths is now actually enjoyed. DS didn't like maths at junior school - he was good at it, but said he felt excluded as the kids on his table were more or less left to get on with it while the teacher concentrated on those who maybe needed more help. This is no longer the case - he's doing well, and the whole class seems to work at much the same level. I'm confident that academically he will do as well at Parmiter's as he would have done at Habs. If I wasn't, he would have gone to Habs. Or St Albans?

Musically, he carries on piano, at what I now realise is the shamefully low level of Grade 3 What is lovely is that we had asked if there was any chance to try out trombone as he would like to be able to play in a big band. Within one term the opportunity has come up to hire a trombone at a very reasonable rate and a lesson at a convenient time. As I understand it, there are quite a number of bands that one would join in with. DS has a friend who plays flute in the Friday Band, for which the only requirement seems to be a Grade 3. Perhaps this is the band/orchestra to which Pushydad refers? I gather the music played is all rather good stuff, like James Bond theme tune. It sounds good fun to me. There have been a number of concerts advertised; musically, there seems to be plenty going on.

Now that I've done a few pickups, I've had the chance to hang around outside school and see the children come out after school. I actually love this. The kids are always well behaved, walking along chatting and smiling in little friendly groups. Everyone looks happy. 'Aaaah,' I think to myself, happily.

The Parmiter's staff have been fantastic in helping with the (very few) settling issues we've had. Really supportive, very approachable.

Fees and the paying thereof were certainly a consideration for us. We could have done it, but it would have been a huge commitment and would have meant a lot of changes to our family life. School trips would have been less of an option had we gone for an indy school as there just wouldn't have been very much money spare beyond fees. It's all very well having fantastic trips, but if you can't afford to go on them they're less of an issue. At Parmiter's, school trips are now much more viable. We've just had a letter back for a Y7 language and cultural trip to Normandy in June/July. If you look on the Parmiter's web site you will find lists of trips planned (under the calendar bit) and clubs and activities (under letters to parents).

Both are excellent schools - we went for Parmiter's not because there were any arguments against Habs, more that for us there were so many more arguments for Parmiter's. I see from your posts that you had DAO first choice, followed by Parmiter's second. We chose in reverse; as far as I could see there really wasn't much to choose between them, and if DS had got DAO instead of Parmiter's I'd have been thrilled. Transport would have been a slight problem, but we'd have made a plan to get him to such a great school. We chose Parmiter's ahead of DAO partly because of the transport issue, but also because it just felt more like a good fit. If you liked DAO enough to want to go there above Habs, my guess is that you'd be really happy with Parmiter's.

Anyway - I hope this has helped a little. I wish you all the best with your decision and hope that your DS will be really happy wherever he ends up. He did very well to get offers from two such great schools and deserves to feel very proud of himself; I'm sure he'll shine wherever he goes.

[Pushy Dad]

I must admit that I laughed when a grammar school parent went on about he loved xyz school because of its inclusive nature, unlike a private school. It’s a grammar school. How can it be inclusive if it selects those that it is going to be inclusive towards?

Apart from that, I found the anti Pushy Dad comments a bit unfunny A question was asked about whether parents would choose a very good private school over a very good state school. I tried to give the OP an idea of my evolving views on the subject and the reasoning behind my choices.

Herty - No doubt there are ardent supporters of non-selective schools out there who think that grammar schools and privates schools should be done away with. If you went onto their forum and said why you favour grammar schools, as opposed to the local comprehensive, no doubt you would be accused of being elitist and you be would be accused of thinking that his kid was too good to mix with common folk.

To me the only people who can hold the moral high ground are those parents who stay with the comprehensive system out of principle. The rest of us are doing what we can to ensure that OUR kids are at the front of the queue for university places.

Some of you chose a grammar school over a comprehensive because you felt that it gave your child more opportunities. I'm lucky enough to be in a position to take it one step further and so I chose a private school for the opportunities offerred by a private school over a grammar school.

So lets not do the kettle-pot-black routine eh?

How did this forum get so serious and political. Yay! Our kids got into the schools that they wanted.