Watford Grammar School for Boys

[Cutting42]

My son will be sitting the exam this September. We have no idea what sort of scores he will need to get in order to get a place at the school.

Just saw this bit re scores - I think aiming for over 90% in both papers is a good idea (or ideally 100%) - I think most of those who get places say their dc got over 90% in both in practice papers by exam time.

My DS practised on the Bond books and by the time of the exams was scoring mid 90's on Maths and VR with the occasional 100% on Maths and the occasional 85% on VR. He did get into WGSB with a strong score that would have been good enough for any consortium school. So assuming he performed as he had at home, my guess from that is that you need to be seeing above 85% routinely on Bond books for WGSB.

[RationalityRules]

Thank you all so much for all these tips.

I had also not heard of the mock tests, but they sound like a really good idea. Do you actually get your papers back to find out what your ds or dd needs to work on?

Goodness this is all a minefield, and what an unfair system for children whose parents don't have the time, inclination or money to prepare properly.

[Daogroupie]

It is a system that favours those who prepare. If you had to plan for your primary education you will be used to this. If you lived right near to a good school all this will be new to you. You are in a competition, there are not enough places for everyone so the places will mostly go to those who do as much as possible to secure them. I believe the Sutton mocks got my dd's through to the second round of HBS and refocused me on the areas I needed to help them with. Sutton gives you the chance to compare your marks with everyone else. Others offer you the chance to have your paper back with feedback or just sit the paper and get the mark. This forum is littered with posts from parents who listened to the school and friends who told them their dcs were bright and did not need to work. I can only think of one post from a parent who thought they might have overdone it because they got such high marks, but even they would do it all again because it is more about what everyone else is doing. Every year I know more and more candidates who get full marks in DAO VR. That is 41% of the total mark which means that you will get a place with much lower marks in English and Maths. It takes a lot of time to get that good at VR. I would find out now how good your dc really is in a room full of candidates under time pressure. If you do a search on Sutton mocks you will find posts from parents who had a wake up call when they got their marks. There are several families I know who laughed at the idea but then were way off the mark in the exams they sat. If you dont have the inclination then the forum cannot help you, in terms of time switch off the TV and the ds and you can make time. You dont need money, there are loads of free online resources. I dont think it is an unfair system, but then I wouldn't because it worked for me, but if a child has parents who are not prepared to work hard to help their children go to these schools then they probably wont do so well when they get there. It does not stop when you get there. If you want to get the best out of a good school you just move onto different parts of the forum! DG

[RationalityRules]

DAOgroupie, are you a tutor?

I'm sorry if it offended you, or anyone else, that I mentioned that the system seems unfairly biased towards children who have parents with the time/money/energy/inclination/education to help their kids achieve their full potential.

I am, obviously, a member of this forum and planning to prepare my ds as well as I can for his grammar school entrance exams, so I am grateful for your information about the mock exams (an idea which I have never laughed at!) and please be assured that I am not trying to take the moral high ground on this at all.

Of course it isn't news that those parents with a good education and disposable income can secure the best education for their children. But there are families for whom 'turning off the tv' isn't enough. There are families without the resources at home or at work to source their own free tutoring materials, and there are parents who may not have the education to teach their children VR/NVR/Maths/English even if they could access the materials for free. There are families in which two parents work jobs with long hours to keep things afloat, after which they collect their children and try to make time to cook and eat dinner together, do day to day homework, keep their houses clean and tidy and their children washed and in clean, ironed clothes, before visiting elderly and sick relatives and working a second job at the weekend. We are all very lucky if this doesn't describe us, but that doesn't mean that these things aren't true.

I can't help but be worried about your comment about the ongoing need to visit forums like this one and work hard to make sure that your children get the best out of secondary school. As well as being in a good school and being encouraged to make the most of the opportunities they are presented with, our children must be encouraged to become more and more independent so that they can function increasingly securely and successfully as people in their own right as they move through their teenage years towards adulthood. At some point we all have to step back and allow them to take responsibility for their own learning and their own choices, don't we? I understand the need for one-off preparation, over six months or so, to help them to perform to the best of their abilities in an 11+ entrance exam, but I am interested to know more about the need to continue to be heavily involved in their day-to-day education as they move through secondary school. It may be that, despite ds being academically gifted, a grammar school simply isn't for us, if this is the case. We feel that a rounded, independent child becomes a happy, successful adult and that, while academic learning is important and provides a great springboard for a future career, it is not the be-all and end-all. Is that not an attitude that will wash in one of these very competitive, selective schools?

[herty]

Of course it will wash. At a good secondary, grammar or otherwise, the school will teach your dc and you do not need to helicopter parent all the way through. I think most kids find the transition to lots of subjects and homework hard and do need help with time management but if they really need extra tuition at a good grammar then they're in the wrong school.

I suspect daogroupie meant just that the work continues (for them not you) once at the school. You can help/advise if you wish but not tutor.

[Cutting42]

Of course it isn't news that those parents with a good education and disposable income can secure the best education for their children.

Snip

Is that not an attitude that will wash in one of these very competitive, selective schools?

An interesting post. Much you say I agree conceptually with but the system we currently have in Watford was not designed to work the way it is currently working.

The consortium VR tests were designed to be attempted without prior practice or tutoring. The maths is standard key stage 2 maths which is taught in junior school so other than the natural variation in childrens ability the consortium test should sort on ability.

However, and it is a huge however, this approach does not take into consideration that every parent I have ever met wants the best for their children and will try to get an advantage, fair or otherwise for their child. So the whole tutoring for the consortium test business has grown up. Parents who are able to, will either pay for a professional tutor or will tutor themselves. Despite the claims of the test setting authority there is no question that practice and coaching on technique does improve the average scores achieved in both maths and VR. Hence the general std has gone up to a point where everyone is tutoring more or less so that children less able or not tutored have their chances reduced.

No it is not fair but it is human nature and guess what, it is also true for the rest of life. Not much is handed out for free.

[Daogroupie]

It is simply a supply and demand issue. People queue outside shops to get the bargains on the first day of the sales and outisde ticket offices to snap up tickets for popular events. I slept outside on the ground all night in order to be first in the queue on the day some new houses were being released. I got the only one bed house that was made available. With only a few spaces available parents prepare their children in an attempt to get them the best chance possible to get a space. We gave up all socialising and clubs for the term before the exams. It seemed a very small price to pay for seven years worth of a good education. But most of the parents at our primary thought we were mad and had a very good laugh at us. They had no interest in anything other than the local school and could not see any reason to look at any other options. Many have large detached houses and two cars and would be able to afford tutors if they wanted to. But time is more important than money, there are lots of free materials online that can be accessed at the library. But the most important thing is a dc who wants a place and is prepared to work hard to have a chance of securing one. DG

[tiffinboys]

I have heard many times that no preparation should be done for 11plus exam and that the test would pick the children with natural ability. Some people think that it is unfair to tutor children. Where this unfairness comes from?

Is it unfair because some parents can not give time to their children and tutor them? Or it is unfair because some parents are not inclined or able to tutor their children? So does that mean all parents should not send their children to grammar schools?

Are we just supposed to drop and pick our children from school? If preparing kids for grammars is unfair, surely being able to send kids to preps or independent schools must also be unfair? So all these schools should also be closed. What kind of argument would that be?

Or it is unfair because some parents can not afford the tutor fee? Firstly, one can DIY. Otherwise, the cost of tutor (one session per week) is between £20 to £35. Some may not really be able to afford it, but for many we see complaining, may I say this is the cost of 4-5 packs of cigarette or 2 boxes of beer. Choice is ours to make...

To me, only thing really unfair in all this saga is that, as DAOgroupie pointed out earlier, there are too few grammar places available and there are too few good comprehensives worthy of any mention. The flawed logic earlier in 1960s and early 1970s resulted in closure of over 1200 grammar schools, without corresponding increase in good comprehensives/secondary moderns. And things are not getting any better.

[RationalityRules]

Thank you all for your interesting posts. Clearly an emotional subject for many!