is this fair or legal?
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Guest
Katel, the reference to in and out of area scores is to Tonbridge Grammar School which sets aside a certain number of places for out of area candidates. These are competed for seperately from the remaining in-area places so cut-off marks can be completely different.
Apart from this school and 2 of the boy's grammars, all the grammars in the Kent CC area (as far as I'm aware) give priority to candidates from within the "scheme of education"; in other words, within the Kent 11+ areas.
The West Kent grammars are very close to the county border and also to a comprehensive area in Kent so there are plenty of out-area candidates who live very close to the schools (a couple of miles away in some cases) who will, in practice, not be able to get places because all children from 11+ areas (including your child miles away in East Kent, for example) take priority. For girls TGS is therefore the only grammar at which they have a real chance of a place; hence the interest in differing pass marks.
Apart from this school and 2 of the boy's grammars, all the grammars in the Kent CC area (as far as I'm aware) give priority to candidates from within the "scheme of education"; in other words, within the Kent 11+ areas.
The West Kent grammars are very close to the county border and also to a comprehensive area in Kent so there are plenty of out-area candidates who live very close to the schools (a couple of miles away in some cases) who will, in practice, not be able to get places because all children from 11+ areas (including your child miles away in East Kent, for example) take priority. For girls TGS is therefore the only grammar at which they have a real chance of a place; hence the interest in differing pass marks.
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StroudieDad
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:21 pm
Over in Sunny Gloucestershire our grammars give priority to children from a certain area, so the Stroud grammars give the priority to children from the 'former Stroud Secondary Catchment Area'. BUT this is only for children of an equal mark, in the same way that a child with a sibling would also get priority over those who have the same score in the test. A child with a sibling or in-area would not get in if they had 220 and the lowest score for admittance was 221.Apart from this school and 2 of the boy's grammars, all the grammars in the Kent CC area (as far as I'm aware) give priority to candidates from within the "scheme of education"; in other words, within the Kent 11+ areas.
Someone also mentioned Oxted School. I'm sure that used to be a grammar once upon a time (until the tory Surrey CC abolished our lovely grammars in 1976 - thanks a lot guys - I was at Dorking Grammar and they took the fence down between us & the girls comp next door so the boys in the school were outnumbered 3 to 1).
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cosmetic surgeon
jaw treatment
I am not sure why the post from Perplexed made an earlier respondent's jaw drop quite so far. I am equally unsure why someone else considered he/she should spend more time playing with his/her children and should not stop to think about whether Kent 11+ testing spread over two days, or concentrated on one day might make a difference to a child's 11+ score.
In the same way that many people consider KS2 results, OFSTED reports, and 11+ success rates when choosing a primary school, Perplexed is surely sensible to think about whether the actual 11+ test centre arrangements may make a difference to a child's final score. Of course all these things can change, and one may have to change schools for other reasons, but one can only make the initial school decision on the best facts available at the time combined with one's personal preferences.
I also was interested in this issue and have a little knowledge gleaned on the subject by talking to admissions officers at KCC.
One officer has explained to me that there are "linked independent schools" who follow the two day testing arrangements that are also available in Kent state primaries. Most Kent independent schools are linked, so the majority of children attending independent schools in Kent (irrespective of whether they live in Kent or not) have the same two day testing as Kent state primary children.
It is mostly children attending independent and state primaries outside Kent (even if they live in Kent) who follow the one day test arrangements in a test centre rather than in their own school. The same officer told me that a slightly higher proportion of the children tested on one day rather than two pass the Kent 11+.
However, another officer told me that they thought taking it all on one day could be a disadvantage and this could be grounds for appeal. So this
is a little confusing!
I would like to add as a postscript that Perplexed did sound a little less crazy than some of you. He/she seemed to be genuinely interested in which was better - one or two day testing - as this may affect his/her choice of primary school. Also, he/she seemed to be pretty openminded about a grammar school or comprehensive education (said would be as happy with Oxted School (a Surrey comprehensive) as with Tonbridge Grammar School for Girls (a Kent grammar school).
In the same way that many people consider KS2 results, OFSTED reports, and 11+ success rates when choosing a primary school, Perplexed is surely sensible to think about whether the actual 11+ test centre arrangements may make a difference to a child's final score. Of course all these things can change, and one may have to change schools for other reasons, but one can only make the initial school decision on the best facts available at the time combined with one's personal preferences.
I also was interested in this issue and have a little knowledge gleaned on the subject by talking to admissions officers at KCC.
One officer has explained to me that there are "linked independent schools" who follow the two day testing arrangements that are also available in Kent state primaries. Most Kent independent schools are linked, so the majority of children attending independent schools in Kent (irrespective of whether they live in Kent or not) have the same two day testing as Kent state primary children.
It is mostly children attending independent and state primaries outside Kent (even if they live in Kent) who follow the one day test arrangements in a test centre rather than in their own school. The same officer told me that a slightly higher proportion of the children tested on one day rather than two pass the Kent 11+.
However, another officer told me that they thought taking it all on one day could be a disadvantage and this could be grounds for appeal. So this
is a little confusing!
I would like to add as a postscript that Perplexed did sound a little less crazy than some of you. He/she seemed to be genuinely interested in which was better - one or two day testing - as this may affect his/her choice of primary school. Also, he/she seemed to be pretty openminded about a grammar school or comprehensive education (said would be as happy with Oxted School (a Surrey comprehensive) as with Tonbridge Grammar School for Girls (a Kent grammar school).
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Guest
Cosmetic Surgeon
I suspect that the surprise which perplexed's concerns raised were because to many people the test centre issue really palls into insignificance compared to all the other factors one considers in choosing a primary school. A child will spend at least as long in primary education as at secondary school. And arguably the primary years are the more formative ones. As for the test arrangements, I personally would be very surprised if admission procedures don't change in the next 8 years. I just hope that the grammar schools will have survived that long; I certainly wouldn't want to second guess test dates!
I'm sure there are plenty of other parents on this forum who would also have been happy with Oxted school; I would have been and indeed investigated buying in that area (or around a couple of other good Surrey comps). We couldn't afford it. So hooray for the Kent grammars with their much wider catchment areas and correspondingly lower house prices!
I suspect that the surprise which perplexed's concerns raised were because to many people the test centre issue really palls into insignificance compared to all the other factors one considers in choosing a primary school. A child will spend at least as long in primary education as at secondary school. And arguably the primary years are the more formative ones. As for the test arrangements, I personally would be very surprised if admission procedures don't change in the next 8 years. I just hope that the grammar schools will have survived that long; I certainly wouldn't want to second guess test dates!
I'm sure there are plenty of other parents on this forum who would also have been happy with Oxted school; I would have been and indeed investigated buying in that area (or around a couple of other good Surrey comps). We couldn't afford it. So hooray for the Kent grammars with their much wider catchment areas and correspondingly lower house prices!
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perplexed
one day versus two day Kent 11+
Well this has proved to be an interesting and frequently meandering thread.
Despite much apparent criticism from some of the contributors to the thread, I am still interested to hear if anyone has any evidence either way as to whether performing the Kent 11+ tests in one day at a Saturday test centre, or over two days at the child's own primary school results in a significant difference in score between the two groups.
I am also interested in the current test arrangements at the Saturday test centres. What sort of breaks are there between papers? What are the test centres? Are the test centres quieter on Saturday than schools are during the week as some have suggested?
With thanks
Despite much apparent criticism from some of the contributors to the thread, I am still interested to hear if anyone has any evidence either way as to whether performing the Kent 11+ tests in one day at a Saturday test centre, or over two days at the child's own primary school results in a significant difference in score between the two groups.
I am also interested in the current test arrangements at the Saturday test centres. What sort of breaks are there between papers? What are the test centres? Are the test centres quieter on Saturday than schools are during the week as some have suggested?
With thanks
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Guest
Re: one day versus two day Kent 11+
perplexed wrote:Well this has proved to be an interesting and frequently meandering thread.
Despite much apparent criticism from some of the contributors to the thread, I am still interested to hear if anyone has any evidence either way as to whether performing the Kent 11+ tests in one day at a Saturday test centre, or over two days at the child's own primary school results in a significant difference in score between the two groups.
I am also interested in the current test arrangements at the Saturday test centres. What sort of breaks are there between papers? What are the test centres? Are the test centres quieter on Saturday than schools are during the week as some have suggested?
With thanks
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Guest
Re: one day versus two day Kent 11+
[quote="perplexed"]Well this has proved to be an interesting and frequently meandering thread.
Despite much apparent criticism from some of the contributors to the thread, I am still interested to hear if anyone has any evidence either way as to whether performing the Kent 11+ tests in one day at a Saturday test centre, or over two days at the child's own primary school results in a significant difference in score between the two groups.
I am also interested in the current test arrangements at the Saturday test centres. What sort of breaks are there between papers? What are the test centres? Are the test centres quieter on Saturday than schools are during the week as some have suggested?
I feel there are differences but no advantages over either. On one hand a child taking the 11+ in their own primary school may feel relaxed in familiar surroundings, but this should be weighted against the background noise of lesson changes, children talking in coridors, phones ringing, the general hum of a school on any working day. A designated test centre or school although not familiar would offer ideal test conditions, the test would start on time, there would be no interuptions or outside noise to disrupt the flow of the test. Generally, between tests there will be breaks for children to have a drink and snack, normally a child will know at least one other taking the test in this form. Differnces yes, advantages, I personally dont think so.
Despite much apparent criticism from some of the contributors to the thread, I am still interested to hear if anyone has any evidence either way as to whether performing the Kent 11+ tests in one day at a Saturday test centre, or over two days at the child's own primary school results in a significant difference in score between the two groups.
I am also interested in the current test arrangements at the Saturday test centres. What sort of breaks are there between papers? What are the test centres? Are the test centres quieter on Saturday than schools are during the week as some have suggested?
I feel there are differences but no advantages over either. On one hand a child taking the 11+ in their own primary school may feel relaxed in familiar surroundings, but this should be weighted against the background noise of lesson changes, children talking in coridors, phones ringing, the general hum of a school on any working day. A designated test centre or school although not familiar would offer ideal test conditions, the test would start on time, there would be no interuptions or outside noise to disrupt the flow of the test. Generally, between tests there will be breaks for children to have a drink and snack, normally a child will know at least one other taking the test in this form. Differnces yes, advantages, I personally dont think so.
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Grumpy etc
Re: 7 years to go
Shakes head...perplexed wrote:I agree with you Guest00 that I am looking so far ahead and anything could change during that time ( daughters due to go into reception in 2008 and 2010). But I'm that kind of person. And that is why it occurred to me that it would be a shame to find a school out of Kent county, and better than my local one, only then to regret it when my children reach Year 6 if the test conditions are less favourable than in a Kent primary.
The test conditions are currently different, but I do not know if they are less favourable. If they are, it would be a shame, particularly as I'm hoping for TOGS!! No I have not decided on their marriage partners or careers yet. And if Oxted School's admission policy were different for people living in my area of Kent, I would be equally happy for them to go to this currently good Surrey comprehensive.
However, if I had to place a bet on much changing in the next 7 to 9 years as regards the 11+ and grammars in Kent, the only ones I would bet on are some changes to the papers themselves, and the timing of the sittings. I do not see Kent grammar schools in Kent disappearing.
So this is why I want to make my primary school choice based on full information about the pros and cons of sitting the test over two days versus one day.
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bromleymum1
Perplexed asked about the one day testing arrangements and breaks between tests. My son took the Kent test as an out of borough candidate ( we live in Bromley). Children are asked to attend the test centre on a Saturday in January and practice the test. The following week they sit the test. During the geniune test I think he said there are breaks of approximately 15-20 minutes between each paper. He had enough time to remove his name tag and stick it on his forehead at the end of the last test, leading me to believe he had impaled himself on his pencil when I collected him. He didn't seem stressed by the test experience. Which is more than can be said about me!
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sleepy
to grumpy etc
To Grumpy etc
Perhaps seeing Snow White after work will cheer you up. You should also be pleased with yourself for being able to put phrases into bold in your quotes from Perplexed.
If you try whistling while you work it may help you to stop the rather distressing headshake you seem to have developed.
Perhaps seeing Snow White after work will cheer you up. You should also be pleased with yourself for being able to put phrases into bold in your quotes from Perplexed.
If you try whistling while you work it may help you to stop the rather distressing headshake you seem to have developed.
