Waiting list outcomes?

[jonnie303]

Quote:
this would merely move the problem to a different set of disadvantaged families/children.


Please explain this point, I don't understand it.

Sorry for my lack of clarity. I simply meant that if Judd/Skinners were to make more places available to in-area children at the expense of out-of-area children, then this would disadvantage the out-of-area children who would otherwise have been offered places at these excellent schools.

[7oaksdad]

But the out-of-area children do not come from disadvantaged backgrounds. In fact, not a single child at either Skinners or Judd is on free school meals. TWGSB, which draws exclusively from local children, on the other hand, has a significant number of boys on free school meals.

Lets be honest, it's not unemployed shelf-stackers from Bromley or Brighton who are sending their children to Judd and Skinners - they've probably never even heard of Judd and Skinners. But the Judd and Skinners admissions policies are resulting in the children of unemployed shelf-stackers from Tonbridge and Tunbridge Wells failing to get into the schools. This is a big, big problem for the schools in the light of the hightened emphasis in the current Admissions Code on fair access to all.

[twellsmum]

Am totally with you, 7oaksdad! I hear that children are coming to ToGS and Judd from Canterbury and Brighton and all places in between? Surely no matter how good a school is the effect is going to be obviated by having such a long commute. Local schools should do like TWGGS does - take predominantly from the local (Kent) area and maybe have 10% of places for exceptionally bright out of catchment children.

And BTW it does not bother me either way as if I climbed on to my roof I would be able to see both the TWBGS and TWGGS so my children, as long as they pass, are in to a grammar school! I do have friends in North Tonbridge though with bright boys who are panicking that they won't get a grammar school place because all the grammar school places in Tonbridge go predominantly to very rich privately educated over tutored children instead of naturally bright local children! Now I'm ducking below the parapet!

[tonbridgemum]

Must admit i have never really thought about it before this thread. However having over 66 boys on the waiting list at TWGB is outrageous as they are likely to be local lads. Maybe the system does have to be looked at as out of area seem to take a huge amount of places this year. It would be fasinating to know how many Judd/skinners boys are out of area.
When my eldest son went to Judd, all his friends seemed to be sevenoaks/Tunwells but that was a few years ago. Have things just changed recently? more children?
We are only 2 miles from TWGB (and got a place) but know of a boy of 3 miles who didnt get a place. I have never known it so small.
Its a difficult situation because the schools are available for everyone (wherever they live) but if this is the case, maybe they should now all offer the same oversubscription criteria.

[kentmum1]

TWGSB, which draws exclusively from local children, on the other hand, has a significant number of boys on free school meals. .

There are, in fact, very few boys on free school meals (confirmed in Ofsted report). However, school would very much welcome boys from disadvantaged backgrounds but the system just doesn't seem to be working in this way. Instead, most boys are coming from advantaged backgrounds. Those boys on the waiting list will be a mixture of those who didn't get enough marks for Judd or Skinners but there is also a sizeable proportion each year who just wanted it as their first choice.

[kentmum1]

I think there are a lot of myths about all the schools out there. Certainly the vast majority of all the boys/girls I know that go to any of the super selectives/other grammars have come from state schools and are not in any way super rich. From what I can see, there is a healthy mix in all the schools.

I spent 7 years with a school where children come from one of the most deprived areas in T Wells, and also nationally. Very few of these parents showed the slightest bit of interest in grammar schools. In fact, very sadly, there were some who showed very little interest in their child's education at all!

[7oaksdad]

There are, in fact, very few boys on free school meals

I am not sure where your figures are coming from but my figures for all the schools are for 2007 and they show Judd and Skinners not taking a single child from a disadvantaged background, well, well below the national average for grammar schools. Given that the figures are from the full school roll, not just admissions, this suggests that neither Judd nor Skinners have admitted a single child from a less advantaged background in over seven years. If that is not evidence of systemic bias, I don't know what is.

TWGSB has at least some children who have made it to the schools from disadvantaged backgrounds. Obviously TWGSB could do better but at least it is not systematically excluding those boys.

There are over a thousand children eligible for free meals in the area so the lack of children at Judd and Skinners from disadvantaged background is not the result of a lack of those children locally.

Those boys on the waiting list will be a mixture of those who didn't get enough marks for Judd or Skinners but there is also a sizable proportion each year who just wanted it as their first choice.

Lets get this clear, the boys on the waiting list are those who:

1. Passed the 11 Plus; but,
2. Did not score enough to get into Judd or Skinners; and,
3. Live beyond the current distance cut off; for example those living north of central Sevenoaks.

To classify those poor, poor, children in north Sevenoaks who have been offered places in Sittingbourne, Dover, Folkstone and so on as children 'who just wanted it as their first choice' and as somehow picking and choosing is so, so unfair on those children and the grief they and their families are going through at the moment.

Very few of these parents showed the slightest bit of interest in grammar schools. In fact, very sadly, there were some who showed very little interest in their child's education at all!

Plenty of grammar schools around the country manage to get children from that type of background into their schools. What about those children from disadvantaged backgrounds in Tonbridge and Tunbridge Wells who are interested in education and are currently excluded by the system from Judd and Skinners?

Anyway, you are exactly making the point about out-of-area children. It is the more advantaged and affluent families from Brighton, Bromley and Canterbury who are motivated and can afford to 'play the system' and send their children to Judd and Skinners to the exclusion of less affluent in-area children.

[shuff]

I keep hearing of people who have bought a second property near the Grammar school they want their child to get into, not to live in, just for an address. Not only grossly unfair to those kids who are just out of catchment, but highly illegal!

[Villagedad]

Has anyone ever heared that either Judd or Skinners would consider changing their over-subscription criteria, and include some form of in-area preference in their admissions...? I wonder if it has ever been seriously considered by either headmaster..

A very interesting debate.

Regards
Villagedad

[7oaksdad]

Has anyone ever heard that either Judd or Skinners would consider changing their over-subscription criteria, and include some form of in-area preference in their admissions...?

Yes, the schools are aware of all the problems and grief that their admission arrangements are causing and both Boards of Governors were asked to consider the arguments in favour of introducing some form of catchment area. They didn't even bother to engage in the debate or seek to justify the current arrangements.

I believe that the out-of-area parents within the schools form a very, very vocal minority who would scream blue murder if the arrangements were changed to include a catchment area in the over-subscription criteria. There can not be any other explanation. After all, the schools do well enough academically but there are plenty of schools around the country with catchment areas and which take in some children from less-advantaged background that do better and it is nonsense to believe that a child from Brighton scoring 412 in the exam is going to have better long term education outcomes at 18 than a local boy scoring 411.