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 Post subject: Re: AGSB or MGS?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 9:20 pm 
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Location: Cheshire
ok I really did not want to get into fisty-fight over this silly issue.

AGSB is a outstanding and wonderful school and any boy/parent who wants a single sex boys school would find it difficult to find a better one , but one thing it is not is a super-selective school!

How could it be? When 70% are selected from a population of a small town by having a relatively modest entry requirement for entry of 334 +/- review for those who are in catchment?

"I reckon that the majority of the 1300 who sat AGSB live outside of the catchment so the pool they are selecting from covers a vast area."

er... no actually, the entry criteria and standardisation methods used by AGSB ,almost guarantees 70% of place go only to in-catchment boys (to keep the character of the School local and quite rightly IMO), so it does not matter if there are a million OCC applicants from as far out as Timbuktu they only have access to 30% of places and by definition this exclude AGSB from the the super-selective league.(all must be able to apply from Timbuktu with equal access dependent on rank only this is the only commonly accepted definition of a proper super-selective senior school)

plus alty 11+ come very early in the Sept many applicants may have no interest in actually going there some may prefer other more local Grammars and most prep boys from as far as Ladybarn Prep( who almost all go to indies anyway) just come for the practice and I would dispute the figure 1300!

"I would say that academically the two schools are more or less on a par with each other "

er....no actually, lets look at some facts and figures:

Examination results 2013
AGSB;
at A Level A/A*= 54% A*=18%
at gcse A/A*=64% A*= 32%

Examination results 2013
MGS;
at A Level A/A*=71% A*=26%
at gcse/igcse A/A*=91% A*=70%

in fact these results of 2013 are the closest AGSB have ever got to MSG in terms of raw head to head figures!
figures for 2014 not release as yet for MGS in keeping with most Top Public schools like Eton College -who just rely on reputation and historical results.
source
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/Parent_Power/
please feel free to link on individual schools to see previous results .


"Perhaps the boys from Hale and Bowdon that go to MGS do so because they didn't pass for AGSB...? Our son goes to AGSB (from out of catchment), enjoys it enormously and is doing very well. Four other boys from his primary school class also sat for AGSB but did not get a place"

OK lets assume what you are implying is true i.e AGSB is more selective then MGS, what is this telling us given the above hard data

1) AGSB is is adding no value or even negative value

2) AGSB is adding expected value but MGS is adding a huge VA to their students

3) both schools adding the same amount of V/A so input=output so MSG must by logical deduction must be more selective... no?

which ever way you cut it MGS wins.

as I said I wanted to resist such a silly discussion, I often have to bite my lip when I attend fancy function when some ill-informed mum says some inane comment like " oh my DD goes to AGGS it is a super-selective school you know ?only the very best girls get in there! "looking at me for affirmation(because she know my dd attends there).

the reason I am proud of AGGS is precisely that it is not super-selective and it knocks seven -bells out of 3/4 of the true super-selctives :D


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 Post subject: Re: AGSB or MGS?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:58 am 
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Posts: 135
Hi,
The selection process for MGS is totally difference compared to AGSB. Firstly they do not have a set amount of boys places each year it depends on the cohort sitting the exams for that year. The Maths paper IMO is on par or slightly harder than AGSB but the English papers are certainly much more in depth (including the verbal reasoning aspect). However the boys also have to spend a whole day in school as part of the entrance exams where MGS are observing behaviour, social skill, their attitude to learning - are they motivated? ect. In addition to this MGS speaks to the boys' primary school and if the boys pass both elements of the above then they are invited for an interview to discuss hobbies and aspirations.

Whereby AGSB are only looking at how the boys perform on the day (and we all know on any given day many children who passed the exam could have easily have failed the same exam on a different day) MGS will take boys who might not have done well on exam day but would have seen the potential and ability through the rest of process to be given a place.


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 Post subject: Re: AGSB or MGS?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:02 am 
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Posts: 135
Hi
Also meant to add to really can't compare the two schools like for like because of the different methods both school use to select.


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 Post subject: Re: AGSB or MGS?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:03 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:54 pm
Posts: 77
Vicster wrote:
I hadn't realised that so many sat Sale in comparison to AGSB. It does make sense though, seeing as Sale is co-ed.
I think both MGS and AGSB are excellent schools and both are very selective, just that they have different selection processes. I reckon that the majority of the 1300 who sat AGSB live outside of the catchment so the pool they are selecting from covers a vast area.


Yes, I presume there are more for Sale as it's co-ed. I'm not sure how many sat Stretford or Urmston but the number of boys applying to sit for StvAmbrose increased by about a third this year. Again with lots coming from far and wide.
We are so lucky having these fantastic school's on our doorstep, especially as they are free!! :D


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 Post subject: Re: AGSB or MGS?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:20 pm 
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I can only comment on the general consensus locally - of the boys that I know who took the entrance exams for both Alty Boys and MGS, everyone who passed Alty Boys also passed MGS. Of the boys who failed Alty Boys, all but 2 passed MGS.

I'm talking about a handful of boys for the last 3 years so I appreciate that its not a scientifically proven study (!) but it does suggest that as a starting point, MGS do take less able boys than Alty Boys. That matches the perception on the ground - people are sitting MGS as a "back up" (subject to finances) if they don't pass Alty Boys. Whether it is a better school than Alty Boys based on exams results (although it would be interesting to see the numbers of pupils who actually take the exams rather than percentages), I don't know.


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 Post subject: Re: AGSB or MGS?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:57 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:03 pm
Posts: 1824
Location: Cheshire
Mandy21 wrote:
lthough it would be interesting to see the numbers of pupils who actually take the exams rather than percentages


the figures for 2012 at A level were:
MGS=183
AGSB=157
here are some more hard stats taken from the brum/wolves region by WhetstoneDad2

no permission to copy& paste asked (since already in public domain on this forum , but many thanks anyway for the hard work)

The Good Schools Guide has, since 2004, had its own take on this, with its unique 'Cambridge Qualifying' marker. This includes only those pupils who would have reached a typical Cambridge university offer of A*AA in academic subjects or their equivalent at International Baccalaureate and/or Pre-U (Pre-U is a course designed, in conjunction with Cambridge, especially to stretch and challenge the very best students at advanced level - with top grades garnering UCAS points beyond A* at A level).

Independent schools dominate the top of the table, with London schools - St Paul's Girls School, Westminster School and St Paul's School - occupying the top 3 positions. Only one state school, the highly selective The Henrietta Barnett School makes the top 10. Independent schools account for 80% of schools in the top 200.

The results below have been averaged across 3 years of results - 2009/10/11. Subscribers to this website can compare schools - using measures such as the Cambridge Qualifying Standard and value-added. We also feature, on individual school pages (for subscribers), the universities students go on to and the courses they take.


The 'Cambridge Qualifier' - Top 200

School Town Type % getting A*AA or better in academic subjects

1 Saint Paul's Girls' School A GSG School London Independent 84.46%
2 Westminster School A GSG School London Independent 82.14%
3 Saint Paul's School A GSG School London Independent 77.59%
4 Wycombe Abbey School A GSG School High Wycombe Independent 75.38%
5 North London Collegiate School A GSG School Edgware Independent 73.42%
6 Magdalen College School A GSG School Oxford Independent 73.10%
7 Guildford High School A GSG School Guildford Independent 72.15%
8 Withington Girls' School A GSG School Manchester Independent 70.70%
9 Oxford High School GDST A GSG School Oxford Independent 66.36%
10 Henrietta Barnett School (The) A GSG School London State 65.43%
11 South Hampstead High School A GSG School London Independent 64.75%
12 Haberdashers' Askes Boys School A GSG School Elstree Independent 64.43%
13 Queen Elizabeth's School, Barnet A GSG School Barnet State 63.48%
14 Concord College A GSG School Shrewsbury Independent 63.37%
15 Tonbridge School A GSG School Tonbridge Independent 63.05%
16 Haberdashers' Askes School For Girls A GSG School Borehamwood Independent 62.76%
17 Eton College A GSG School Windsor Independent 61.70%
18 Royal Grammar School (Guildford) A GSG School Guildford Independent 61.48%
19 City Of London School For Girls A GSG School London Independent 61.12%
20 Winchester College A GSG School Winchester Independent 59.18%
21 Lady Eleanor Holles School (The) A GSG School Hampton Independent 59.10%
22 James Allen's Girls' School (JAGS) A GSG School London Independent 58.36%
23 Colchester Royal Grammar School A GSG School Colchester State 57.27%
24= Saint Helen And Saint Katharine A GSG School Abingdon Independent 54.97%
24= Stephen Perse Foundation/Perse Girls A GSG School Cambridge Independent 54.97%
26 Perse Upper School (The) A GSG School Cambridge Independent 54.30%
27 King Edward's School, Birmingham A GSG School Birmingham Independent 52.40%
28 Cheltenham Ladies' College (The) A GSG School Cheltenham Independent 51.97%
29 Pate's Grammar School A GSG School Cheltenham State 51.87%
30 Merchant Taylors' School A GSG School Northwood Independent 51.76%
31 Hampton School A GSG School Hampton Independent 51.28%
32 Saint Catherine's School A GSG School Guildford Independent 51.08%
33 Reading School Reading State 51.04%
34 Alleyn's School A GSG School London Independent 51.02%
35 Notting Hill And Ealing High School A GSG School London Independent 50.96%
36 Saint Mary's School Ascot A GSG School Ascot Independent 50.89%
37 Saint Mary's Calne A GSG School Calne Independent 50.63%
38 King Edward VI High School For Girls A GSG School Birmingham Independent 50.59%
39 Colyton Grammar School A GSG School Colyton State 50.32%
40 City Of London School A GSG School London Independent 50.25%
41 Cambridge Tutors College Croydon Independent 49.81%
42 Saint Olave's And Saint Saviour's Grammar School A GSG School Orpington State 49.34%
43 Manchester Grammar School (The) A GSG School Manchester Independent 48.95%
44 Saint Swithun's School A GSG School Winchester Independent 48.87%
45 Latymer School (The) A GSG School London State 48.77%
46 Royal Grammar School (Newcastle) A GSG School Newcastle upon Tyne Independent 48.32%
47 Saint Albans High School For Girls A GSG School St Albans Independent 47.98%
48 Putney High School A GSG School London Independent 47.93%
49 Tiffin Girls' School (The) A GSG School Kingston Upon Thames State 47.91%
50 Badminton School A GSG School Bristol Independent 47.81%
51= Harrow School A GSG School Harrow on the Hill Independent 47.42%
51= Radley College A GSG School Abingdon Independent 47.42%
53 University College School A GSG School London Independent 46.85%
54 City Of London Freemen's School A GSG School Ashtead Independent 46.25%
55 King Edward VI School (Southampton) A GSG School Southampton Independent 46.17%
56 Brighton College A GSG School Brighton Independent 46.00%
57 Channing School A GSG School London Independent 45.77%
58 Godolphin And Latymer School (The) A GSG School London Independent 45.76%
59 Headington School A GSG School Oxford Independent 45.62%
60 Kendrick School Reading State 45.32%
61 Charterhouse A GSG School Godalming Independent 45.24%
62 Sevenoaks School A GSG School Sevenoaks Independent 45.01%
63 Latymer Upper School A GSG School London Independent 44.38%
64 Bellerbys College Brighton Independent 44.32%
65 Saint Albans School A GSG School St Albans Independent 44.22%
66 Altrincham Grammar School For Girls A GSG School Altrincham State 43.92%
67 Highgate School A GSG School London Independent 43.88%
68 Tiffin School A GSG School Kingston Upon Thames State 43.56%
69 King Edward VI Grammar School, Chelmsford A GSG School Chelmsford State 43.47%
70 Wilson's School A GSG School Wallington State 43.45%
71 King Edward VI Camp Hill School For Boys A GSG School Birmingham State 43.10%
72 Abingdon School A GSG School Abingdon Independent 43.05%
73 Benenden School A GSG School Cranbrook Independent 42.96%
74 Bancroft's School A GSG School Woodford Green Independent 42.85%
75 Manchester High School For Girls A GSG School Manchester Independent 42.49%
76 King's School Canterbury (The) A GSG School Canterbury Independent 42.48%
77 Saint Helen's School A GSG School Northwood Independent 41.97%
78 Wimbledon High School A GSG School London Independent 41.84%
79 Sutton Grammar School A GSG School Sutton State 41.64%
80King Edward VI Camp Hill School For Girls
A GSG SchoolBirmingham State 41.47%
81 Loughborough High School A GSG School Loughborough Independent 41.24%
82 Queen's School (The) A GSG School Chester Independent 41.15%
83 Oundle School A GSG School Peterborough Independent 40.58%
84 King's High School Warwick Independent 40.38%
85 Eltham College A GSG School London Independent 40.31%
86 Saint Peter's School, York A GSG School York Independent 40.24%
87 Nottingham Girls' High School A GSG School Nottingham Independent 40.06%
88 Reigate Grammar School A GSG School Reigate Independent 40.05%
89 Dulwich College A GSG School London Independent 39.63%
90 Sir William Perkins's School A GSG School Chertsey Independent 39.38%
91 Lycee Français Charles De Gaulle (British Section) A GSG School London Independent 39.37%
92 Downe House School A GSG School Thatcham Independent 39.02%
93 Dr Challoner's High School A GSG School Little Chalfont State 39.02%
94 Warwick School A GSG School Warwick Independent 38.89%
95 Loughborough Grammar School A GSG School Loughborough Independent 38.78%
96 Leicester High School For Girls Leicester Independent 38.66%
97 King's College School (Wimbledon) A GSG School London Independent 38.39%
98 Kingston Grammar School A GSG School Kingston Upon Thames Independent 38.12%
99 Abbey School Reading (The) A GSG School Reading Independent 37.88%
100 Woodford County High School A GSG School Woodford Green State 37.81%
101= Croydon High School A GSG School South Croydon Independent 37.79%
101= Lancing College A GSG School Lancing Independent 37.79%
103 Dr Challoner's Grammar School A GSG School Amersham State 37.66%
104 Dame Alice Owen's School A GSG School Potters Bar State 37.29%
105 Watford Grammar School For Girls A GSG School Watford State 37.26%
106 Bristol Grammar School A GSG School Bristol Independent 37.24%
107 Bellerbys College Cambridge Cambridge Independent 37.18%
108 Casterton School A GSG School Via Carnforth Independent 37.16%
109 Judd School (The) A GSG School Tonbridge State 37.04%
110 Saint Francis College Letchworth Garden City Independent 36.96%
111 Tormead School A GSG School Guildford Independent 36.83%
112 Bolton School Girls' Division A GSG School Bolton Independent 36.77%
113 Norwich School A GSG School Norwich Independent 36.66%
114 Nottingham High School A GSG School Nottingham Independent 36.57%
115 Newstead Wood School For Girls A GSG School Orpington State 36.32%
116 Exeter School A GSG School Exeter Independent 36.29%
117 Caterham School A GSG School Caterham Independent 36.22%
118 Trinity School A GSG School Croydon Independent 36.18%
119 Talbot Heath School A GSG School Bournemouth Independent 36.18%
120 Whitgift School A GSG School South Croydon Independent 36.03%
121 Nonsuch High School For Girls A GSG School Sutton State 35.99%
122 Bradford Grammar School A GSG School Bradford Independent 35.93%
123 Shrewsbury High School A GSG School Shrewsbury Independent 35.82%
124 Burgess Hill School For Girls A GSG School Burgess Hill Independent 35.75%
125 Grange School (The) A GSG School Northwich Independent 35.69%
126 Rugby School A GSG School Rugby Independent 35.62%
127 Queen Margaret's School A GSG School York Independent 35.38%
128 King's School (Chester) (The) A GSG School Chester Independent 35.15%
129 Portsmouth Grammar School (The) A GSG School Portsmouth Independent 34.98%
130 Malvern Saint James A GSG School Great Malvern Independent 34.90%
131 Cheadle Hulme School A GSG School Cheadle Independent 34.85%
132 Colchester County High School For Girls A GSG School Colchester State 34.73%
133 King Edward's School (Bath) A GSG School Bath Independent 34.28%
134 Canford School A GSG School Wimborne Independent 34.22%
135 Chelmsford County High School For Girls A GSG School Chelmsford State 34.22%
136 Sheffield High School A GSG School Sheffield Independent 34.14%
137 Altrincham Grammar School For Boys A GSG School Altrincham State 34.04%
138 Bishop's Stortford College A GSG School Bishop's Stortford Independent 33.22%
139 Bosworth Independent College Northampton Independent 33.18%
140 Marlborough College A GSG School Marlborough Independent 32.99%
141 Twycross House School Atherstone Independent 32.78%
142 Stockport Grammar School Stockport Independent 32.77%
143 Ilford County High School A GSG School Ilford State 32.64%
144 Roedean School A GSG School Brighton Independent 32.57%
145 Central Newcastle High School A GSG School Newcastle upon Tyne Independent 32.55%
146 Bellerby's College Oxford Independent 32.50%
147 Grammar School At Leeds (The) A GSG School Leeds Independent 32.48%
148 Uppingham School A GSG School Uppingham Independent 32.46%
149 Bolton School Boys' Division A GSG School Bolton Independent 32.43%
150 Watford Grammar School for Boys A GSG School Watford State 32.39%
151 Royal Grammar School, High Wycombe (The) A GSG School High Wycombe State 32.38%
152 Hereford Cathedral School Hereford Independent 32.28%
153= Moreton Hall School A GSG School Oswestry Independent 32.18%
153= Sutton High School A GSG School Sutton Independent 32.18%
155= Wallington County Grammar School A GSG School Wallington State 32.09%
155= Blue Coat School (The) Liverpool State 32.09%
157 Solihull School Solihull Independent 32.05%
158 Queenswood School A GSG School Hatfield Independent 31.99%
159 Shrewsbury School A GSG School Shrewsbury Independent 31.84%
160 Maynard School (The) Exeter Independent 31.70%
161 Leicester Grammar School Trust Leicester Independent 31.50%
162 Chase Academy Cannock Independent 31.34%
163 Chetwynde School Barrow-in-Furness Independent 31.02%
164 Hymers College Hull Independent 30.92%
165 Repton School A GSG School Derby Independent 30.77%
166 Ashford School A GSG School Ashford Independent 30.65%
167 Kingswood School A GSG School Bath Independent 30.64%
168 Dauntsey's School A GSG School Devizes Independent 30.62%
169 Red Maids' School (The) A GSG School Bristol Independent 30.56%
170= Merchant Taylors' Boys' School A GSG School Liverpool Independent 30.41%
170= Wakefield Girls' High School A GSG School Wakefield Independent 30.41%
172 Forest School A GSG School London Independent 30.32%
173 Ermysted's Grammar School A GSG School Skipton State 30.23%
174 Bromley High School (GDST) A GSG School Bromley Independent 30.21%
175 King Edward VI Handsworth School Birmingham State 30.00%
176 Queen's Gate School A GSG School London Independent 29.97%
177 Brighton And Hove High School A GSG School Brighton Independent 29.96%
178 Lancaster Royal Grammar School A GSG School Lancaster State 29.95%
179 Woldingham School A GSG School Woldingham Independent 29.86%
180 Ockbrook School Derby Independent 29.67%
181 Bootham School A GSG School York Independent 29.66%
182= Aylesbury Grammar School A GSG School Aylesbury State 29.65%
182= Bedford School A GSG School Bedford Independent 29.65%
184 Harrogate Ladies' College A GSG School Harrogate Independent 29.58%
185 Saint Mary's School, Cambridge A GSG School Cambridge Independent 29.52%
186 Chigwell School A GSG School Chigwell Independent 29.48%
187 Saint Margaret's School Bushey Independent 29.29%
188 Cardinal Vaughan Memorial RC School (The) A GSG School London State 29.27%
189 D'Overbroeck's College A GSG School Oxford Independent 29.21%
190 Ipswich High School A GSG School Ipswich Independent 29.18%
191 Francis Holland School, Regents Park A GSG School London Independent 28.99%
192 King Edward VI Five Ways School A GSG School Birmingham State 28.98%
193 Wellington College A GSG School Crowthorne Independent 28.96%
194 Caistor Grammar School A GSG School Caistor State 28.87%
195 Merchant Taylors' Girls' School A GSG School Liverpool Independent 28.70%
196 King Henry VIII School Coventry Independent 28.66%
197 Hills Road Sixth Form College A GSG School Cambridge State 28.58%
198 Northampton High School A GSG School Northampton Independent 28.56%
199 Francis Holland School, Sloane Square A GSG School Belgravia Independent 28.54%
200 Our Lady of Sion School Worthing Independent 28.53%

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=39987

personally I think one should look at value added figures and ignore league tables , if you do not know what they are ask the school you are interested in they have the hard data.You could get this info from GSG but you would have to be a subscriber.


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 Post subject: Re: AGSB or MGS?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:02 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:23 pm
Posts: 69
Mandy21 wrote:
I can only comment on the general consensus locally - of the boys that I know who took the entrance exams for both Alty Boys and MGS, everyone who passed Alty Boys also passed MGS. Of the boys who failed Alty Boys, all but 2 passed MGS.

I'm talking about a handful of boys for the last 3 years so I appreciate that its not a scientifically proven study (!) but it does suggest that as a starting point, MGS do take less able boys than Alty Boys. That matches the perception on the ground - people are sitting MGS as a "back up" (subject to finances) if they don't pass Alty Boys. Whether it is a better school than Alty Boys based on exams results (although it would be interesting to see the numbers of pupils who actually take the exams rather than percentages), I don't know.

Ditto! MGS was used as a back up at DS's school too. The boys that passed AGSB also passed MGS but out of the 4 that had not passed AGSB 2 passed MGS. Let's face it, why would you pay if your child has managed to get a place at one of the top schools for free?


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 Post subject: Re: AGSB or MGS?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:39 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:03 pm
Posts: 1824
Location: Cheshire
miltonkeynes wrote:
Let's face it, why would you pay if your child has managed to get a place at one of the top schools for free?


you would be surprised!

TBH AGGS was a compromise for us if we could of afforded WGS as well as my son going private we would of chosen WGS over AGGS I know this will "wind" some people up here.
but facts are facts and the objective evidence (as opposed to anecdotal hearsay) is overwhelming, the stats are undeniable over many years particularly in terms of value added(so what if AGGS may(?) be more selective than WGS it's university outcomes that ultimately counts IMO)

Having said that we are very happy with AGGS as should anyone who gets into such a fabulous school as AGSB :D and for nowt. :lol: all the way to the bank, but you get what you pay for, that's just life ,we can't always have what we want.


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