What about local children?!!

[timpmum]

Workerbee- I agree there is/ and should be a reciprocal agreement with Lymm and Knutsford due to proximity, there always has been even when I went to AGGS.


I also agree with Hermanmunster that schools in all areas should cater for all abilities equally and the system overall is unfair.

workerbee, you say - ''You want everything! access to Grammars for the very brightest (as long as they are from Trafford postcodes) and entry into the best Non Selective high schools (in Trafford or out) so children who didn't get into the grammar schools can get a great education.''

In reply- No I didn't say that, I want access to Trafford schools without the skewing caused by current entrance exam inflation due to demand ( 1000+ applicants says it all!!) Whilst local children get a place if they pass, the pass mark itself has been artificially inflated due to the huge demand from out of area.
Trafford children have access to Trafford schools the same as Stockport children have access to Stockport schools etc.
Our only choice is the \trafford system which is wholly selective- the Grammars in Trafford are part of the Trafford school system the Grammars were not set up to cater to the brightest from anywhere but to cater for Trafford residents as part of our entire selective school system which we have to use. You go on to say '' We shouldn't try to protect any school for a resident of a particular postcode'' I do agree in principal , but no-one expects to get a place in most high achieving comprehensives/high schools unless they live on the doorstep, why should Grammars be different, as they are in simple terms, for us, the equivalent the top 3 or 4 sets in your local high school ? .


What I am trying to get across is that my children ( in Trafford) cannot access great fully comprehensive high schools in other areas such as Stockport and Manchester ( lymm and Knutsford is the only exception and even then is not open to all trafford children) whereas parents in surrounding areas are actually the ones' wanting their cake and eating it,' not me, as they want the choice of their own areas fully inclusive high schools and also the chance of the Trafford Grammars, local children get pushed down the ladder of our fully selective system as a result and are forced to enter the pressured world of tutoring if they want a fair chance.

The grammar schools shouldn't be so highly selective, but should return to the generic 11+ and prioritise local children who are in the top 30-40%- Achieving 100% A/A*s GCE's for all pupils doesn't prove the school is amazing and the only place for very clever children, it means it selected only those children who would achieve those grades anywhere in the first place! My neices are a case in point, they went to their local high school elsewhere in the UK, achieved A* across the board at GCSE and A'level, both went to Oxford and are now in medicine and physics- they didn't need a grammar school to achieve that, just a fair chance within the school system they had.

My DS was lucky to get into Wellington, I know that, but because the Grammars are taking fewer local children, Wellington is full with many of those who would traditionally have gone to AGGS/AGBS and as a result it's catchment is now only about 1 mile! I know of numerous local children ( Broadheath and Oldfield brow in particular) who ended up with places at Stretford or Broadoak in Partington as none availble locally- how is this fair?

The fact is that the exceptionally clever children should be catered for by their own LEA

If the argument that Grammars in Trafford shouldn't be kept for local children ( and I concede this should include those up to 3 miles away in Lymm etc as has always been the case) but should be open to all then why can't Trafford children freely get places at high schools? In fact why can't children access any school in the country that they want, that would work, wouildn't it ! - It doesn't really work both ways I think.

If you are out of area and haven't had a child just miss the pass mark in an area where most children do entrance exams you perhaps wouldn't understand the impact this has upon them. My DS was devastated for weeks, 4 years later and his confidence is still knocked- he doesn't believe he is clever even with the results he is getting, because he knows he isn't in 'the grammar' and can't aim any higher than the top set, which he knows isn't 'the top' in the area. You also wouldn't understand that although Wellington is excellent, the skewed cohort affects how children perform, behave and how they view themselves, for example DS has not been given the same aspirations or belief that he can succeed at university as did my DD who attended grammar, although he is equally bright and capable ( if not more so in some areas). And finally you perhaps wouldn't realise that Trafford 6th Form provision is centred around the Grammars, giving those who are clever enough, but just missed out, a much lower chance of a decent 6th form education than those in surrounding areas with fully inclusive systems( something I hadn't appreciated myself until now!).

I do have to add that I was a very strong supporter of the selective system, until I realised the impact it has on large numbers of very able local children within it who are 'cast aside' at the age of 10 or 11. ( To the point that even the high schools welcome evening includes a speech about trying not to feel your child has failed by not going to the Grammar!)

As I keep saying, it's not the parents, it is 'the system' nationally at fault

[Catseye]

For me, local has to mean closest , LEA boundaries are meaningless to me, funding is central, but I have always had an aversion to "Little Britain(Trafford)" mentality, I live a hop, skip and a jump from AGGS and have no problem with children from Timperley or Knutsford attending my dd school, I have a good friend from Lymm and at her son's school 9 children are going to Trafford Schools ripping the heart out of the potential high performers out of Lymm High-yet many Trafford kids attend there despite their recent problems-where a believe 34 teachers left en-mass but the Super-Head OBE as stabilised things now.

in summary the relationship between Trafford and surrounding areas is reciprocal and on the whole beneficial to both ,in different ways, unfortunately there are always going to some who loose out but that's selective education for you, which I incidentally I disagree with, as a matter of principle( so says, the biggest hypocrite in Cheshire )

[Slowrunner]

I agree, the problem is the "knock-on" effect for Trafford children - we are a case in point - we live almost exactly one mile from two excellent high schools - Wellington and Ashton on Mersey - however we were advised by Trafford (and by the schools themselves) that we would be very unlikely to get a place at either. Had my son not scraped into a grammar by the skin of his teeth, he would be looking at a pretty long journey to a not-great school, which I don't think should be the case in such a built-up, urban area with a supposedly outstanding education system. I'm not sure those coming from out of area, fully appreciate this. Not having a go, I totally understand parents wanting the best for their kids but I agree with Timpmum, the system stinks

[twinsgashead]

My twins are at a Trafford Primary and basically everyone who passed has been offered a place at a grammar - some chose Stretford over Urmston and are on a waiting list - but looking back on the year I'd say that all those who probably should have passed did so. Out of 13 boys, 9 passed and have a grammar place either at Urmston or at St Ambrose (luckily having the catholic option too). There were few surprises in terms of kids passing and we are higher up the criteria than OOC children so from that point of view it does work - if you pass. However, a huge number are choosing BTH in Altrincham over St Antony's or Wellacre/Flixton girls. St Antony's results are still terrible so the north of the borough still needs some work. Lots choose to go to Knutsford if they don't have the option of BTH.

[timpmum]

I think twinsgashead has hit on the issue here in Trafford - Urmston (and St Ambrose but only since they very recently stopped admitting what was quite a significant number of non-catholic boys from miles away and focused back on local catholic boys!) do cater as they should for local children ( I don't know the figures for OOC children at Urmston but I'd like to bet it isn't very high compared to Altrincham) and the class figures quoted sound about right to me, it is specifically AGGS and AGBS and to an extent SGS which have become super selective with a large OOC proportion of children thus pushing down local children, they should all apply the same criteria ie the 11+.
(I have already said I don't have a problem with those nearby, eg Lymm/Knutsford being in catchment as they are geographically very close, it is those from further afield I am concerned about, I don't think I know of any outstanding high schools anywhere who could/would apply the same criteria?).)

AGGS and AGSB results simply reflect their artificially high selection admission criteria, very clever children will 99% of the time do very well wherever they are (in a non-selective area!)

I would also repeat that I don't understand why parents from miles away( not Lymm/knutsford ) think Grammar schools should be open to all the cleverest children regardless of LEA/address- It is exactly the same as suggesting that all bright pupils from out of area should be able to take up a third of the places in their local high schools top sets regardless of where they live, thus pushing down local children by skewing the cohort. Remember Trafford Grammars ( including AGGS abd AGBS) are our 'top set' within our school system- this is not a 'little Britain' mentality, it is fact, My children cannot expect to get a place in any Stockport/Didsbury high schools for example.

[Altymumof2]

Very true Timpmum- on the day of the AGSB exams there were boys arriving on privately hired coaches from Burnley and Oldham which are both over 20 miles away and a real battle to get to from AGSB.

[twinsgashead]

I notice however St Ambrose is consulting on a change to their admission criteria next year and getting rid of the feeder parish system (which isn't solely for Trafford as does take in Whalley Range and Chorlton) and admitting 'boys at a catholic primary schoool' so looking to admit with the highest scores regardless of where you live. Probably under pressure from what is happening with the Altrincham schools meaning some Trafford kids will undoubtedly miss out in future where they may have previously got a place. My boys did both pass Altrincham but even living in Trafford, wouldn't have got a place there as they are deemed OOC (even within Trafford though if they were girls they were in the catchment for AGGS) and their scores wouldn't have been high enough for the first round. I really think Trafford schools should be for Trafford kids first. Urmston only admits the top 20 regardless as does Stretford I think, which seems a much fairer system - Trafford kids still have to pass a fairly rigorous exam regardless... The debate rages on!

[wilmslowmum]

Perhaps you would prefer non selective education because if the grammars could only select from Trafford you would send halfof the children to the grammars and the rest to the other schools which would make the cohort even more divided and probably create a lot more dissatisfied parents. At least with non selective everyone is in the same boat. I also think most LEAs cannot provide all their children with 1st choice schools i know in Wilmslow there are a lot of parents who haven't been offered the High school because it is so over subscribed i know of one who only lives 1.5miles from the school. The child is faced with over a 10mile journey to Tytherington. It is obvious that as the birth rate increases the problem will escalate unless more good schools are provided. As for the catholic grammars they take a lot of children from afar and they do use score for allocation once they have filled the diocese places which go out as far as Hulme. I support Grammar education but i can understand the issues you have in Trafford i am sure i would feel the same if it was me. But believe me there are allocation issues everywhere. Also Knutsford is a Cheshire East school which means that both LEAs offer each others children placements.

[timpmum]

You are right wilmslowmum, I do now believe the selective system is not the 'fanatastic school system' it is lauded as. Having now seen both sides of the coin with dd passing and ds not , even though he got into excellent high school, I can see the damage selection does to those unfortunate enough to be 'selected out' of the chance to blossom and progress into the higher achieving sets and onto decent sixth forms- with the detrimental effect upon their own confidence and self belief-
I have realised the selective system whilst giving very bright children very channelled education is not the best option for the majority of children who are within the system however good the high schools. ( which of course doesn't apply to out of area children who can still go to a fully non-selective school if not able to get into Trafford grammars)

I realise we are lucky with our particular school places but my DS is still negatively affected by being in the 'failed' group reinforced by the separated schools and many others have additionally not been so lucky with high school options available to them.

The country needs an excellent non-selective education system for all, it is interesting that some other countries who don't use streaming at all, achieve very good academic outcomes ( and probably less children with damaged self esteem )

[Vicster]

I am in two minds about whether the system is unfair to local children.
In areas which have a full grammar system and don't really accept children from out of catchment areas you have a defined 2 tier system with the top 50% in grammars and the rest in high schools. In areas with grammar schools that are superselective and take based only on score without any consideration of distance you find a much greater ability mix in the high schools (with many being more like comprehensives due to the vast mix).
I don't think it is good for any area to have the top achieving 50% in grammars and the rest in high schools.
I do agree that it is unfair that Trafford is facing a schools place shortage based on taking children from out of catchment but I don't know what the answer is without having a 50/50 system which isn't a good model.