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 Post subject: Help request with NFER VR questionPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:55 pm
Question 43 in the 11C Standard NFER VR test is as follows:

AB is to YZ as CD is to (__)

If you do this in the normal way, A to Y is -2 and B to Z is also -2. So the answer should be AB, which is C-2 and D-2.

However, if you consider the symmetry approach, the answer is WX. The answer key also says WX.

My question is how we are supposed to know which method we should use in a standard form test. In a multiple choice test, if one of the answers is not among the options, then we can use the other option. However, in a standard test, this is not possible.

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 Post subject: Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:42 pm
I think you answer these by looking at the relationship between the A and the B and then look at the Y and the Z. You do not compare the A to the Y and the B to the Z. That then gives you the correct answer. Think there are other threads in here that explain in more detail.

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 Post subject: Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:49 am

Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:49 am
Posts: 145
Hi,
infact I had similar doubt as Dad5 with the exact above verbal question. My daughter answered "AB" and she was really confident about it. But somehow the answer given WX which has a different logic.
Could any of the Verbal tutor please explain how to know which logic should be applied for a particular question? Is there any preference of this sequence which follows a typical rule? I personally feel that answer "AB" is not wrong if looked from a different angle...........

_________________
mum

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 Post subject: Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:55 am
My instinctive answer to this was WX. I would look for patterns rather than decoding. If you look at the pattern, it has to be WX. Whereas AB is a decoding approach. That's the best I can explain it!!

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 Post subject: i am also herePosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:10 am
oh this one is also one of those ones... anyways i (another worried mum) also got the aswer as AB. i am sure if the right answer is different to this then Patricia "GURU" will expalin it to us very soon. where are you Pat... we need you.thanx for bringing this one up.

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 Post subject: Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:26 am

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:29 pm
Posts: 625
Hi

The symmetry approach to this question works on the basis that

A = Z
B = Y
C = X
D = W

So AB is to ZY not AB is to YZ

If the symmetry approach was used

CD would be XW not WX

Hope this helps

Regards

Mike

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 Post subject: Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:36 am

Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:49 am
Posts: 145
i'm confused.................
the actual question is

Quote:
Question 43 in the 11C Standard NFER VR test is as follows:

AB is to YZ as CD is to (__)

If you do this in the normal way, A to Y is -2 and B to Z is also -2. So the answer should be AB, which is C-2 and D-2.

However, if you consider the symmetry approach, the answer is WX. The answer key also says WX.

As per Mike symmetry approach was not used..........ok i agree, but whats the basis of solution then in standard format?

_________________
mum

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 Post subject: Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:43 am

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:29 pm
Posts: 625
Hi

AB is to YZ
as
CD is to WX
as
EF is to UV
as
GH is to ST
as
IJ is to QR
as
KL is to OP
as
MN is to MN

The usual way to work these questions out is to make the connection as follows
AB is to YZ

A is to Y
and
B is to Z

find the connection i.e. A -2 = Y, B - 2 = Z.

If Question 43 in 11C is correct then the connection is between the letter pairs as above.

I would say that this is an unusual connection and if you look through the range of examples provided by a number of puiblishers this type of question is rare.
My advice would be to move on and concentrate on the normal types of connections and not be too worried with questions that contain ambiguities, particularly where they occur in practice papers. It is highly unlikely that an ambiguous question would appear on a real paper written by NFER.

Regards

Mike

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 Post subject: Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:10 pm

Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 4:07 pm
Posts: 2661

Somehow managed to miss this thread…..

This question also appears in the Multiple Choice format. The ‘standard’ answer of AB is not there, its not the ‘normal symmetry' approach [ as stated by Mike ] We are therefore left with 2 options….[ same answer]

1] Use the ‘symmetry plus/minus a approach….

The symmetry letter of A is Z.

Z minus 1 = Y

The symmetry letter of B is Y

Apply the same rule to CD

The symmetry letter of C = X

X minus 1 = W

The symmetry letter of D = W

2] Use the ‘pairing Symmetry’ method….goes against all rules of NOT treating the letters as pairs….

AB is to YZ

The symmetry letters of AB is YZ

Apply the rule to CD

The symmetry letters of CD = WX

To answer the original question, how do you know which method to use when all methods would give you 2 answers. If you have a Multiple choice answer, in the main, they will only give you the answer that IS required, in this case WX [ AB is not there ]

If the test is in Standard form, the child, as already stated, can find 2 answers…..

What to do? Personally I would explain to the child that there are various methods, which CAN produce different answers. The child should, as a norm use the standard method...... However [ bearing in mind NFERS answer] there are times we need to look at the question in ‘pairing symmetry’ mode…..BUT how would they know to use this method?

I always, as a matter of course, teach my children, to KNOW there way around the alphabet, playing games with the alphabet, knowing the symmetry of the letters of the first and last 6 letters of the alphabet. The child will then ‘see’ that AB is at the opposite end to YZ etc etc……and must therefore ‘ASSUME’ its one of the symmetry methods.

I cannot categorically give a definitive answer, only my opinion and how I would instruct my children….

Patricia

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 Post subject: Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:12 pm

Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:12 pm
Posts: 1328
Location: Birmingham
Hi Mike et al

I'm afraid I disagree with your Symmetry answer - if this is applied I get the 'so called' correct answer WX.

The reason being that this is a mirror symmetry problem.

Imagine a ruler with all of the letters of the alphabet typed on it.

Then break the ruler half way between the letters M and N and lay both halves side by side.

There is then a natural mirror correspondence between letters is

A & Z
B & Y
C & X
D & W

So the sequence AB to YZ is up the first half and down the second helf of the ruler.

Similarly CD to WX works in the same way.

Having said that the question is confusing; my son has a very fertile mathenatical mind and when he was doing various 11+ VR & NVR papers last year he would often find obscure associations that were incorrect.

Such are the joys of 11+ papers that reward the simple but obvious answer but sometimes penalise legitimate but obscure answers.

I just glad it's all over!!

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