Sutton Grammar vs Wilsons

[CJP]

Hi all. We are debating which order to put these schools in, for preference purposes and wondered whether anyone had any recent personal experience please?

We understand the academics and are really interested in the pupil experience more broadly?

[Oneoftwothings]

Hi all. We are debating which order to put these schools in, for preference purposes and wondered whether anyone had any recent personal experience please?

We understand the academics and are really interested in the pupil experience more broadly?

My son is at Wilson’s and couldn’t be happier. The SLT in particular are genuinely focused on helping the boys become kind and respectful men, as well as reach their potential. They have done several assemblies on issues surrounding equality and diversity. My son’s main interests outside of lessons are music, chess, football and they are well nurtured there. He has also been inspired into new interests such as poetry and politics, and is only in Year 8...! The enrichment programme is excellent.

My son has friends at SGS who are also very happy.

If there is one of the schools that has a much easier journey, pick that one - you can’t go wrong with either school.

[CJP]

Really appreciate that, thank you. Agree, would be delighted with offer from either!

[Moon unit]

We are out the other side of this now but I have to say Wilson’s is a phenomenal school.
The SLT are first class.
Fantastic music and sport.
Pastorally amazing.
My DD was at one of the girls grammars.
Wilson’s is in a different league altogether.
The pace at Wilson’s is very fast academically.
Minimal staff turnover which says a lot I think.
My DD had six Biology teachers in two years at her grammar.
Sutton Grammar has a more relaxed pace I think.
Main thing for my son was there is no on-site green space at SGS which was important for him and music at Wilson’s was a big draw.
All students get free music lessons in year 7 and free instrument loan.

[tfp_sa]

This is an awful question, but I wondered whether anyone knows the rough [only - e.g. is it more like 25% or 50% or 75%?] Asian population at each of Sutton and Wilsons?

This would be by no means a key consideration but might be something I throw into the mix when considering options.

I suppose I very much want my [white] child to grow up around diversity, hence my staying in the London area etc despite not being originally local, but I suppose dominance by one single non-white culture might give me pause for thought. I'm obviously very aware that this is the situation facing nearly all ethnic minority parents in the country outside of a few areas.

[Upset Dad]

This is an awful question, but I wondered whether anyone knows the rough [only - e.g. is it more like 25% or 50% or 75%?] Asian population at each of Sutton and Wilsons?

Don't have the answer to your question, but this isn't an unusual enquiry.

A few years back there was a FOI on Nonsuch for diversity stats.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/stats_3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[tfp_sa]

This is an awful question, but I wondered whether anyone knows the rough [only - e.g. is it more like 25% or 50% or 75%?] Asian population at each of Sutton and Wilsons?

Don't have the answer to your question, but this isn't an unusual enquiry.

A few years back there was a FOI on Nonsuch for diversity stats.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/stats_3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks, that's really interesting, especially the way it seemed to change quite a bit over a relatively short space of time.

Based on that 2018 data, the Nonsuch year 11 looked I suppose like my idea of diversity [24% white British, 48% asian, rest mix/other], whereas the Nonsuch year 7 was starting to look that bit less diverse [13% white British, 64% asian, rest mix/other]. I suppose I wonder whether the 2021 intake was less diverse still.

Maybe I should FOI the two schools.

[jazbaati99]

I am not sure that I understand the query properly. Speaking from my experience of north London grammar school where 99% population is from south asia, the culture of the school is firmly British. The spoken language is enlgish in the school and so far I have not seen any two boys speaking in a native language with each other (not that anything is wrong with speaking a local language). Without going into what exactly is a British culture, the only accommodation is in the areas of dietary & religious requirements (vegetarian, vegan etc.) and a space for Friday prayers and religious holidays. The primary school where my second child goes is even more diverse but once within the school gates, the culture is purely British.

Most of these children are second and third generation (if not more) immigrants and have similar morals and values compared with their peers. Why do you think a specific minority (non-white) will give you a pause for thought if I may ask? do you have any specific concerns?

[tfp_sa]

I am not sure that I understand the query properly. Speaking from my experience of north London grammar school where 99% population is from south asia, the culture of the school is firmly British. The spoken language is enlgish in the school and so far I have not seen any two boys speaking in a native language with each other (not that anything is wrong with speaking a local language). Without going into what exactly is a British culture, the only accommodation is in the areas of dietary & religious requirements (vegetarian, vegan etc.) and a space for Friday prayers and religious holidays. The primary school where my second child goes is even more diverse but once within the school gates, the culture is purely British.

Most of these children are second and third generation (if not more) immigrants and have similar morals and values compared with their peers. Why do you think a specific minority (non-white) will give you a pause for thought if I may ask? do you have any specific concerns?

I think that’s a really fair question and a good challenge. For context my son’s state primary class in SW London has something like ten White British kids, ten Black British kids, and then ten mixed and ‘other’ including Asian, and I couldn’t be happier with the balance. The culture there is unmistakably [urban, multi-ethnic] British.

So what is it that pops into my head about a class that’s hypothetically majority ‘Asian’ [which I suppose might in practice mean majority third plus generation ‘Indian’]?

Trying to be honest, these are some of the half-formed thoughts that I had swirling round my head when I asked the question, some or probably all of them outdated and unfair stereotypes that boil down to basically fear of the unknown. Most of them aren’t even particularly important to me as a parent one way or another. I suppose they all boil down to a worry that the culture might be a little, I suppose, illiberal one way or another, e.g.:

Maybe disproportionately 'conservative' rather than 'liberal' socio-economic viewpoints?

Maybe disproportionately few kids with ‘arty’ aspirations, maybe disproportionately many who aspire to be doctors etc?

Maybe atypical attitudes towards what I’d consider to be normal teenage subcultures in terms of the music they listen to, etc?

Maybe atypical attitudes towards what I’d consider to be, at an appropriate age, normal teenage small-scale usage of alcohol & so on?

Maybe atypical attitudes towards what I’d consider to be normal teenage ‘dating’ ?

Maybe [I’d hope not] atypical attitudes towards LBGT issues etc?

Maybe [say] cricket disproportionately popular, etc?

[jazbaati99]

I didn't say it is an unfair question I was trying to understand the context of the question. What you explained is more relevant to a comprehensive school and is not really applicable to a selective or a super selective grammar IMO.

Let me just start by saying most of the families who aspires to study in a grammar school will come from the same kind of socio-economic background with a high focus on academics. So in terms of attitude towards study, there will be a greater parental focus in a grammar school compared to a comprehensive irrespective of your background or ethnicity.

Let me try to answer the questions one by one from someone from a Pakistani background

Maybe disproportionately 'conservative' rather than 'liberal' socio-economic viewpoints?
Almost everyone in a school came from the same primary system. There are parts of the curriculum that are compulsory and there are other parts of the curriculum that we have an option to opt out of. However by in large and again in my opinion every one in my DS's class understand diversity, inclusion and what constitute as a hate crime or can be considered as discrimination. Most of these children have some experience of being on the receiving end of this. For sure most of the parents have first end experience of being at the receiving end of the prejudice. So basically what I am trying to say is that most of the families will be centre left and centre right with very few on the extreme ends

Maybe disproportionately few kids with ‘arty’ aspirations, maybe disproportionately many who aspire to be doctors etc?
Yes there is a much greater focus from Asian parents on stem subjects however if you look at the university subjects of QE on the link https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... niversit_7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; there is a fair bit of students studying artsy subjects. Anyway I don't think this can rub off on each other as someone wanting to be a doctor is unlikely to be swayed by someone wanting to study European history and vice versa.

Maybe atypical attitudes towards what I’d consider to be normal teenage subcultures in terms of the music they listen to, etc?
They are very similar. They play similar kind of games and listen to similar kind of music. Where they probably differ is perhaps the Asian kids prefer cricket over football and will surely fail the English test (supporting their native cricket teams)

Maybe atypical attitudes towards what I’d consider to be, at an appropriate age, normal teenage small-scale usage of alcohol & so on
This may be the case but that is a good thing Generally in a grammar school, they will be left very little time to muck about. I don't think they can legally drink while in the school so any consumption will be frowned upon whatever the child's background may be.

Maybe atypical attitudes towards what I’d consider to be normal teenage ‘dating’ ?
This may well be true but then again this type of behaviour should not influence each other. So again IMO if my child doesn't date, he will not have any issue with anyone else dating for example.

Maybe [I’d hope not] atypical attitudes towards LBGT issues etc?
I don't think so. These children are aware of differences and do understand the importance of tolerance and respect. On a side note, intolerance towards LBGT IMO is a more diverse problem as you will find people of all skin colours who may be intolerant towards them.

Maybe [say] cricket disproportionately popular, etc?
That is certainly the case but football is a close second for most of them

On a different note, there are many many subcultures within the south asian communities. You can consider India, Pakistan and Bangladesh to may be as many as 50 ish different countries with distinct culture and languages so it is simplistic to think of them as belonging to a homogeneous culture. As I found out when I moved to UK back in the day how different and distinct white British culture is, you have your English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish identities and then have complete cultures within England (Cornwall, midlands, Yorkshire etc.) Now just scale this to the size of the subcontinent and your will get an idea.

I am more than happy to answer any other questions you may have.

If I may, let me just rephrase your questions to show the advantages of studying with a big proportion of Asian students in a grammar environment

1) There will be very limited behavioural issues from the Asian kids as there will be a laser focus on their progress by their parents
2) There will be limited partners in crime, there will be fewer Asian kids willing to try drugs or alcohol
3) Most of sub cultures on music, video games, football premier league teams etc. will be common (apart from cricket of course)