Tiffin Schools - Admissions Arrangements

[suzanne]

Would Tiffin legally be able to adopt a Wilson School admission policy?

I think that the Tiffin schools would benefit from having just a few extra local kids (I mean say 10 - those v near the cut off who currently loose out to kids from Croydon or Clapham for example).

There is a feeling in the local community of huge disappointment when local kids just miss out on a place, and a feeling of being discriminated against eg. Having to get a top 80 place at Nonsuch but children living next to Nonsuch can get a lower mark to get in there and compete on the same level as a Kingston child for Tiffin.

Haven't things moved on since 1992? There are certainly more and more children commuting ever greater distances to Tiffin. Surely there is some small move that Tiffin can do to at least get one or two more local kids in?

[tiffinboys]

A reminder to Kingston parents: Just last 2 days to respond to the consultations.

Interesting post from Piers and thanks for someone from the Schools giving their views. Good to see someone from the schools reading this forum.

Tiffin Schools are now academies - outside the control of Local Authority. So are Nonsuch and Wallinton High and similarly almost all other Grammar Schools. How come then those schools are continuing with catchment area or other restrictions?

Tiffins could apply Greenwich ruling same way as Nonsuch, Wallington, Newstead, Langley, Latymer, Woodford, atleast 30 of the Kent grammars, etc are applying.

Almost all the grammars are now Academies - outside the control of LA. So the Tiffin situation should have been applicable to them also.

Another point, if you see my earlier proposals, those are not catchment based. Those are based on minimum ability (say score of 110 on each paper) and proximity to school on direct line basis. The pupil may still come from over 7 km or 10 km, but it will ensure that someone living close to school and with selective ability will not be excluded from grammar education.

Other point, it is quite incorrect to suggest that extra admission rights are being demanded. By above proposal, children would be taking the same entrance tests, would have to meet same minimum ability standard fixed by the school, schools would be playing their part in local community (is it not important for school?) and children who could have gone to their near grammar schools (eg. for people living in Harrow/Southall/Greenford, Slough or Langley are closer than Tiffin), would save travelling time and be able to participate more in after school and social activites.

[suzanne]

Yes sorry I forgot to say thank you to Piers for posting - Good to hear from you.

[Trance]

When we attended the open afternoon a year 7 girl did a speech to everyone about what it is like joining TGS. The young girl was from Ealing. What sort of message does this send out to prospective parents?

[tiffinboys]

When we attended the open afternoon a year 7 girl did a speech to everyone about what it is like joining TGS. The young girl was from Ealing. What sort of message does this send out to prospective parents?

That you could apply to Tiffins, even if you live in Timbaktoo, irrespective of travelling difficulties. My friend's daughter prefer to walk home, nearly 2 miles, rather than to wait for the crowded 65 bus. Crowding on buses will get even worse when another mega Secondary schools opens between Tiffin Girls and Fernhill Primary.

Interestingly, why TGS not takeover that site and expand for the benefit of whole of Surrey/Middlesex/London.

[suzanne]

It appears that in 1991 TGS did adopt some form of distance criteria which was challenged by Kingston Borough residents in the South and changed the following year.

Even if as a minimum Tiffin drew a large catchment circle which included the whole Kingston Borough that would stop people applying from Crawley or St Lenoards on Sea (just 2 examples I know of) and then moving to Kingston when their child gets in.

Surely there must be a creative solution if someone could take a fresh look at this issue. It would improve the feeling towards the Tiffin Schools in the local community if someone was to look at this issue again.

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[Piers]

I don't think anywhere I said that prospective parents were demanding anything; I'm afraid that's your stuff!

Sorry, I but I think you are misunderstanding the law; the Greenwich ruling applies to all state schools - it has absolutely nothing to do with the status of the schools themselves as in 1989 foundation schools, academies etc didn't exist. The understanding that all the Tiffin schools have of the law, advised by all educational lawyers and law firms and department of education guidance, is that currently is that the Greenwich ruling and Tiffin Girls' judicial review ruling applies to all state schools across the board, regardless of the school's individual legal status (i.e. whether they are academies, foundation schools, LEA controlled or voluntary aided church schools etc).

The difference, as I mentioned in my previous email, is that Sutton, Kent, Slough, Bucks etc run a two tier secondary system. This has nothing to do with the individual legal status of the schools (otherwise why on earth would you apply to Kingston LEA to get into Tiffin, which you currently do, when neither Tiffin school is part of the LEA). Meaning that if within a local education authority, regardless of the legal status of the individual grammar schools, there exists a two teir system of grammars and other secondary schools then the grammar schools within this are allowed to have admission criteria based upon exam AND distance. If the grammar schools exists outside a two teir system, as both Tiffin Schools do, then legally the only selection allowed is by examination only. This is the law as it stands currently.

From within, I know both Tiffin schools would prefer to have a quota of pupils from the borough, as they both did until the judicial review in 1992, but they are prevented from doing this by the law. Both schools are fully aware of local opinion and have quietly on numerous occasions investigated their legal options, simply to have the law re-affirmed to them therefore leaving the staus quo unchanged.

If anyone has the money and time to take this to the department of education to have the legislation altered, I would think both Tiffin schools would welcome it. Both schools repeatedly state that we wish to educate the whole child and that involvement in extra curricular, sporting/musical etc is a requirement of attending - at TBS prospective parents are actively told not to apply if there are problems, due to distance, with pupils remaining after the school day; yet the numbers from Hounslow and Wembley continue to grow.....

[Piers]

Good news for potential Tiffin Girls as well - the PAN is being increased by 30 to 150 - they must be adding another class. Shame for us that Tiffin Boys are not doing the same

Tiffin Boys' are not allowed to increase in size legally with out the TGS getting even bigger! For the first time since 1998, grammar schools are allowed to expand numbers. In 1998 the numbers on role at grammars were frozen by the then Labour government. Gove has reversed this, hence now TGS is legally allowed to expand.

Even though both TGS and TBS are academies legally we still exist within Kingston LEA. By law LEAs containing grammars must offer the same number of places for boys as girls for entrance into selective schools at year 7.

Confusingly, up until now, TBS has taken 5 classes at entry in year 7 (approx 150 boys), whilst TGS has only taken 4 (approx 120 girls). This is why TGS has only 800 girls whilst TBS has 1000 boys.

To get around the fact that TGS took one fewer classes into year 7 than TBS there has been a rather odd compromise. 5 classes of girls, 150 girls, were said to have passed the TGS exam (so the same number of years 7 entrants as TBS) HOWEVER, the 5th class of girls (in rank order of 11+ exam passes no.s 121-150) were offered a selective school place at Holy Cross Girls' Catholic Comprehensive in a 'grammar school stream'. Thereby the numbers of selective places being offered in Kingston LEA was equal for boys and girls (5 classes of each).

Therefore, TGS is expanding to adsorb the "Holy Cross anomaly" (because for the first time since 1998 it can) to become the same size as TBS i.e. the one class of 30 girls going to Holy Cross will be offered places at TGS so both Tiffin schools will take equal numbers into year 7.

[Piers]

When we attended the open afternoon a year 7 girl did a speech to everyone about what it is like joining TGS. The young girl was from Ealing. What sort of message does this send out to prospective parents?

That you could apply to Tiffins, even if you live in Timbaktoo, irrespective of travelling difficulties. My friend's daughter prefer to walk home, nearly 2 miles, rather than to wait for the crowded 65 bus. Crowding on buses will get even worse when another mega Secondary schools opens between Tiffin Girls and Fernhill Primary.

Interestingly, why TGS not takeover that site and expand for the benefit of whole of Surrey/Middlesex/London.

I probably shouldn't say this, but here have been discussion about a jointly TGS-TBS sponsored Tiffin Free School on the north Kingston site, especially now the LEA North Kingston school is extremely unlikely to be approved. It wouldn't be a grammar as we wouldn't be able to have selection as a criteria as a free school. Watch this space, I guess.

[suzanne]

That's a very interesting explanation of the law as it currently stands - thanks.

It does seem a pity that the schools have not explained this before given the depth of local concern about the issue. Previously any attempt to raise the issue with the governors has been met by a brick wall of apparent indifference. For example, I am aware of a recent letter to the governors on the issue, that was not even given the courtesy of acknowledging they had received it.

I do wonder given that the ruling was 20 years ago whether it is now time to have another look at it.