Independent vs Grammar

[Yamin151]

I think the major factor is cost.As a rule of thumb to calculate the total outlay,budget for 8 years with the extra year accounting for inflation and this will be a considerable sum.For some this will not be an issue as money is no object but for others it will be the deciding factor.This money could pay for university fees or even a sizeable deposit for your child,not to mention paying off a mortgage or contributing into a pension.IMHO if you have a grammar place then take it and save the money, safe in the knowledge your child will be getting a good education but with no frills attached.

THis may be a deciding factor, btu less thah you think if you are borrowing the money anyway. Money for university fees or house deposit is nice, but the former can be borrowed much more cheaply by the student themselves (which it can't for schools fees) and the latter can only in all sense come from 'free' income, again, you wouldn't borrow in order to fund your DCs deposit. So again, we are talking different budgets. If you can afford the repayments (and of course that may be a deciding factor) borrowing for school fees is an entirely different decision process, if you are going to have to borrow, than deciding to give uni fees or a deposit.

Of course, if you have spare money, then yes, you may decide to keep it for these other things, and thats entirely a matter of choice. However, it isn't as simple as taking the free grammar school place, IF your child is one more suited to the other school, and you are prepared to pay for it. Right child, right school, always assuming you ahve the choice and can afford to service the debt, which not all can.

[panicattack]

Dare we ask which schools are being compared here? An independent school in itself does not necessarily guarantee quality - being independent and so less regulated allows more flexibility but may mean that the school can for example recruit teachers who are not qualified. There would be less external review as well to see that standards are being maintained - though of course the best indies are excellent.

Top performing kids at comprehensives probably have an advantage over indies and grammaes with universities as many are now starting to contextualise results!

[Catseye]

Top performing kids at comprehensives probably have an advantage over indies and grammaes with universities as many are now starting to contextualise results!

I think this is all too true, although, this will disadvantage my children more than most, the tide is turning. If you believe your child is super smart send them to worse performing school in your area-what do have to fear? Remember they are super clever.

I don't have that degree of confidence w.r.t to my own DC.

The usual excuse is they will be bullied and prevented to reach their full potential-I do not subscribe to this point of view.

I am all for contextualised Uni entry-it is fair-nowt wrong with a bit social engineering if it aids meritocracy as opposed mediocrity.

[SGSMumof2]

It all depends on what you want from a school and what you think will help your child enjoy life. I have experience of TGS and SGS. SGS is incredible for giving boys confidence and not applying pressure and every boy I've met is so polite. They seem to be able to retain fantastic staff - many of whom have been there for years - and are so passionate about their subject (dont know if any of you heard radio 4 programme on teachers recently and the number of teachers giving up teaching or going abroad!) . In addition the boys turn out as wonderful young men who have no arrogance - which you dont necessarily get from the public school children I've met in SW London (but before you shout me down - my experience of such could be said to be limited) . TGS - the music department is absolutely amazing and really inspires the girls. i suppose if you want fantastic established networks that ensure you child will get a top job in BBC, judiciary, Military, etc then public school is best as more than 60% of people at the top of these professions have such a background

[mjuly]

I have a question for independent day parents.At what level do the fees become uneconomic? Is it £25k or more or whatever it takes?

[scary mum]

I have a question for independent day parents.At what level do the fees become uneconomic? Is it £25k or more or whatever it takes?

What a strange question. That will depend on individual circumstances - level of income, outgoings number of children, priorities etc etc.

[panicattack]

The top independents will usually have better facilities over the grammars, perhaps a few more clubs and societies etc. Some of the grammars feel like they may need a lick of paint or two. But is this worth £13,000 -£20,000 a year more? If you can, bank the money for later. If you don't notice it, then fine.

In terms of academics, there's not much to choose between the grammars and better indies. Ultimately, results will depend more on your child's ability and hard work, though school encouragement is of course a factor.

I don't think we can lump all indies together as well. "Independent" is just a description of how a school's funded and managed - it's no guarantee of quality though there are lots of good ones in SW London.

What is the specific choice here? Parents may be able to give some more specific insights if say it's Tiffin v Hampton or KGS.

[Ladymuck]

The ability to pay gives you more choice. It doesn't guarantee that the paid-for choices are better.

The next 5-7 years are an interesting time politically. I've written about the educational landscape in another post http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/ ... 99#p554947. The experience of a pupil joining a London grammar school now will be different from one who has just left.

When I see "better facilities" quoted on this site, it usually seems to be connected with sports facilities. However the facilities I pay for include more teachers (good independent schools tend to run at around 9:1, whereas grammars are typically 16:1), well-stocked classrooms, textbooks, science equipment, external speakers etc.

Another criticism that I see used is the fact that independent schools can use "unqualified teachers". So can academies and free schools, and as this is under the Surrey section, all 7 grammar schools in Surrey and Kingston can operate under the same teaching qualification requirements as independent schools! There are many excellent teachers without QTS, who are knowledgable in their field and have learned their craft from observing excellent teaching in their schools. I would far rather that my son is taught physics by someone who got a 1st in Physics, worked for Dyson, and then wanted to share his joy with pupils, than for him to be taught physics by someone with a degree in Music but who has QTS and is having to fill in due to a shortage of science teachers (as is the case in my local comp in this region). As I noted on the post linked to above, it is becoming more common to see even grammar schools advertising for general humanities teachers rather than specialists.

The schools are independent, so don't have to jump to every demand of Ofsted/DfE. They can look at the full range of exams, and not feel obliged to be guinea pigs if there are tested alternatives available. Some schools even have written their own exams, recognised by UCAS (offhand Sevenoaks have done this for English literature, but I suspect there are others too).

On a daily basis as a parent, I am treated as a customer: I'm kept involved. When a teacher is ill, I'm informed of the supply arrangements, and kept up to date with what is happening (and use of supply is rare, which is a direct contrast with some schools). Changing GCSE options after the start of September was handled sensibly. Emails to staff are dealt with promptly (same day response). It may be the case that this is all standard in a grammar school too.

Without doubt independent schools fees are expensive. Most parents can't afford it as an option. If you can afford it, but can't see a difference, then it probably isn't worth it. But you need to look at the schools you have offers at and compare them. There isn't always going to be one correct answer. I'm happy with paying fees for the school my dc are at (and declined Sutton grammar places for), but equally there are others I would have avoided, and didn't apply to.

[Yamin151]

+ 1

[curiousman]

Thanks for all your responses.

For better or for worse, we have decided to bin the independent option. 20K is not easy on pocket for us currently and can be used elsewhere.

As I mentioned in initial post, our Independent option is near top school with equal to grammar in academics and perhaps much better in facilities. But 20 thousands for facilities is a bit too much to pay for us. It will stretch our finances completely- and there is no guarantee, we will not have another recession in next 6 years, meaning we lose our income. So we decided to bin independent option.