Systematic preparation approach for Grammar / Private school

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Golden75
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:06 pm

Re: Systematic preparation approach for Grammar / Private sc

Post by Golden75 »

I'm not sure which questions bridge is referring to as being beyond KS2 content, but my DD did say that she thought that the mock was harder than the actual 11+.

At the time of sitting the SGSPTA mock my DD was scoring above 90% in all the 11+ mock papers available online, so we were a bit surprised that her mock score was so low. She had lost her mojo a bit and the low mock score gave her the motivation for a final push. Sometimes a low score in a difficult mock paper can motivate, but I can imagine that with some DC's it can have the opposite effect.
bridge
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:38 am

Re: Systematic preparation approach for Grammar / Private sc

Post by bridge »

I have a number of children so I have to take this quite seriously. And like the op you don't quite know what to expect.

My son sat the mock this year so I got him to PrtSc on every question for the Maths and English. That way I could get a proper break down of what questions he was making mistakes on. It didn't surprise me that there were questions beyond the KS2 content. All the material I have used has had content beyond the KS2 syllabus. So when my daughter was going through the process in 2017 I would find a topic to teach her and then check it against the KS2 syllabus to see what was exactly needed.

Both my children scored reasonably in the Sutton Mock (PTA one); both have gone on to get their first choice on the 1st of March. I'd have to look back at the questions to see exactly which were beyond KS2 - but I think it was the Maths & English -or at least that would make sense. There were errors in the English paper and some of it just didn't make sense

Basically don't be too concerned if you don't score too well in the mock - as both my children have said the prep was way harder than the actual test.
dh28
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:01 pm

Re: Systematic preparation approach for Grammar / Private sc

Post by dh28 »

bridge wrote:
Golden75 wrote: Neither of my DD did particularly well in the SGSPTA mock, but it gave them a kick up the backside and motivated them to work harder, so I definitely recommend it.
Having had a chance to properly look at the mock this year I was hugely disappointed to find plenty of stuff beyond KS2. I always tell parents that the use of it is not the test but the bits surrounding it - queueing, at a desk, lots of people etc.
In the last year's 2 SGSPTA mocks, there were no questions beyond KS2 for either Maths or English. However, they were definitely very hard as compared to both actual SET 1 / 2 tests. The "hardness" was with respect to calculation and not logic: there were lots of questions which required proper pen/paper multiplication/addition/substraction, etc. When we received the results for the mocks, it was very common to see that lot of DC had left 5-10 questions unanswered.

The mocks are as much a lesson in time management as in testing DC's knowledge. There were some tricks which children should know the exam setters like to play, some of which come to mind:

- Total 50 questions. Ques 41-45 are super hard with lots of calculation. Ques 45-50 include some very easy questions with low hanging fruit. This is to test your time management skills (maintain high time awareness and not spend too much time on a hard question)
- Some questions are linked. Getting 1 answer wrong impacts other 2-3 answers linked with it as well.
- In English, not all marks are the same. Especially for the comprehension papers, we taught the DS to understand the weighted marks (i.e. "marks" / "time" ratio) for each question. (e.g. under extreme time pressure, would you attempt 3 questions worth 2 marks each which need 2 sentences for an answer or would you attempt 1 question worth 4 marks which needs half a page of answer?) This helped him immensely in Tiffin stage 2 English test (he was time pressured for last 2 questions worth 6 and 8 marks, but still ended up scoring 88% in the test).

bridge wrote: The op is not going to be alone in doing that much practice. More practise means less mistakes that means that everyone else needs to make less mistakes etc etc....
I would request everyone to put the effort we put in perspective with the results. Not everyone may want to spend this much effort to get a top 5-10 position in the SET tests (which is meaningless on its own). We ended up doing around ~100 papers more because of the covid delay: DS was very well prepared in June itself, but then schools decided to delay the test by 2 months in Nov, so DS ended up having a nice long summer vacation and some additional papers in last 2-3 months, which was his only form of study at the last moment).

It may be wise to expend only as much effort as is required to be in top 400 students (out of ~3000 boys who sit these tests). With our experience, I think that spending around 4-6 hours per week initially in Year 5 and slightly more in last 3 months, along with around 250-300 mock tests may be enough for children to reach the top 400 students. But I would take the above numbers with a big pinch of salt:
- Not everyone's DC is same, and some may need less preparation and some more.
- The quality of time DC spends is more important than the quantity.
- It is critical to be systematic in the testing technique (once the fundamentals are solid). We were religious on tracking and squashing repeated mistakes up to a point that DS became increasingly proficient in realising where to improve on his own.
- Doing more and more tests is meaningless if there is no feedback from them. 10 tests deeply analysed with parents and feedback internalized are much better than 100 tests done without any feedback.
dh28
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:01 pm

Re: Systematic preparation approach for Grammar / Private sc

Post by dh28 »

dh28 wrote: In the last year's 2 SGSPTA mocks, there were no questions beyond KS2 for either Maths or English. However, they were definitely very hard as compared to both actual SET 1 / 2 tests.
According to DS, the actual SET Stage 1 tests were very easy (especially as compared to all the mocks and private school papers, e.g. Manchester Grammar/St Albans). As told by several forum members, it is the simple papers that trip DC up: they end up making very basic mistakes.

Even if your target is only passing the SET, it would be advisable to practice the harder papers (e.g. Manchester Grammar, St Albans, SevenOaks, etc.) every once in a while (e.g. every 5th paper is a harder paper). We found that the harder (practice and private school) papers went beyond KS2 when they covered topics such as systems of linear equations (understanding the techniques for these may help with some of the simpler questions, e.g. father/son age, etc.). Some private school 11+ papers even covered quadratic equations (which I told DS to safely skip).

The main reason to do the hard papers would be to get DC accustomed to "shocks" in the main papers and learn to think on their feet.

As an example, last year's Math SET stage 2 paper was mostly really simple, but DS mentioned one sneaky question* in the paper(considering KS2 syllabus): find the number of zeroes in 100 factorial** (100!). When faced with questions like these: it helps to have gone through some of the harder ones (e.g. if you are seeing factorial for the first time on the test, it is unlikely to go down well). Note that this was only one hard question in entire paper, and despite this, mastering the KS2 fundamentals really well is more than enough to pass these tests, and I would only think about covering non KS2 material in harder papers when DC are well versed with KS2 syllabus.

* Moderators: I think it is okay to tell last year's question on the forum, as no one is going to give these exams now, and it is unlikely that SET will ask the same question again.

** The answer is 24 (number of times the 5 appears as a factor in 100!)
bridge
Posts: 262
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:38 am

Re: Systematic preparation approach for Grammar / Private sc

Post by bridge »

Last year's Maths question 45 - uses the 'less than or equal to' and 'more than or equal to' symbols. These are not part of the KS2 syllabus. So you don't see them in the actual exam or taught in school. I really don't have time to go through the others.

It's interesting that you thought there was nothing in the papers beyond KS2. But considering the amount of work you did understandable. Even a cursory check of the governments published KS2 syllabus would give you this information.

I have absolutely no problem with the amount of work you made your child do that's your business. But beyond KS2 there was.
dh28
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:01 pm

Re: Systematic preparation approach for Grammar / Private sc

Post by dh28 »

Relative difficulty of mocks/exams:

In my original post, I forgot to include the relative difficulty of various mocks and actual exams.

Papers listed in increasing difficulty level:

GL: Extremely easy. Can be safely skipped
Bond: Relatively very simple and outdated. May be good to do them in the beginning.
Letts: Similar to Bond.
CGP: Slightly harder than Bond.

Overall, we found that the above papers were good for initial practice, but did not match the difficulty of the real tests (as some other providers did).

Difficulty of real exams (in 2020):

Sutton SET Stage 1:
Maths: The exam was mostly simple, and DS had 5 minutes left to check his paper. The hardest question he remembered (which we had only covered cursorily in preparation) was "permutations and combinations" which is not covered in KS2. (Something along the lines of how many ways can you choose 3 objects out of total 5?) (Answer is 10).
English: Again this was relatively simple and DS mentioned 10-15 minutes left for review, and that lot of other children also finished the paper before time. (The passage was something describing a city and multiple choice questions based on that).
(DS scored around 95% and 89% in Maths/English with standardised scores of ~125 each)

Sutton SET Stage 2:
Maths: Again this was relatively simple (other than the number of 0's in 100! question I mentioned in one of the posts above)
English: This was only writing a single comprehension question. An event description in zoo set in olden times where some animals get injured and a person has to write a letter to his friend about the event (with a lot of indirect inference on why animals behaved the way they did).
(DS scored around 93% / 97% in Maths/English with standardised scores of ~125 / ~138)



Tiffin SET Stage 1:
Maths: The exam was really hard and DS managed to get this finished just in time. The hardest question he remembered (which we had not covered in preparation) was a simple version of bin packing problem (definitely not covered in KS2). (Something along the lines of you having to divide a pocket money budget to buy some gifts while maximising some criteria). The main problem with Tiffin Maths test is that the answersheets actually ask you to "select" the proper numbers, and there is no multiple choice available to save you from making small mistakes. The consolation here is that all others must also have found the paper very hard.
English: This was slightly harder than Sutton SETs stage 1 english and DS had 5 minutes left for review.
(DS scored around 67% and 84% in Maths/English and despite the low raw score (in Maths), ended up with standardised score similar to sutton of ~125 / ~ 140 respectively)

Tiffin SET Stage 2:
Maths: Again this was harder than Sutton Stage 2 Maths test
English: This was more involved that Sutton Stage 2 tests. There were several writing pieces, (e.g. paragraphs were given and he had to reinterpret them in his own words) and there were two pieces of comprehension (6 and 8 marks): continuation of a story (something related to magic) and the beginning of a speech on the topic "should poems be banned in schools or not").
(DS scored around 82% / 88% in Maths/English with standardised scores of ~110 / ~135)


Overall, SET tests were relatively easier than Tiffins (with an odd "hard" question thrown in). Also from DS's ranks in both the tests, it seems that top scoring students who appeared in Tiffins tests are slightly better prepared than top scoring students in the Sutton SET tests.
dh28
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:01 pm

Re: Systematic preparation approach for Grammar / Private sc

Post by dh28 »

Finally, I wanted to add two more data points as an example of the effort from families vs the results they get.

DS for one of the next door Family 1 did a simliar level of preparation for exams in 2019 (probably slightly more than us). Their DS scored in top 40% in the SGSPTA first mock (due to time management issues), hence they ramped up the preparation in the last 2-3 months. One of the interventions they did was to send their DS to some 4 week crash course in summer vacation before 11+ which made DS do 6 papers each and every single day. Their DS passed both stages for Wilsons, Tiffins and also Hamptons with a scholarship. They ended up sending him to Wilsons.

DS for Family 2 who lives across the street also did a simliar level of preparation for exams in 2019, with the same crash course (6 papers a day for 4 weeks), and ended up getting offers from Wilsons, Tiffins and St Pauls. Their DS is currently in Wilsons.

Why would someone send their DS to selectives if they need so much preparation?

Both the DS from above 2 families are thriving in Wilsons. DS from family 1 is way beyond swimming stage 9 and is at ABRSM Grade 6 in music. In the covid lockdown, of their own accord, both of the above DS have turned their attention to speed cubing and have mastered over 100 algorithms from youtube by themselves required for the advanced CFOP method. They are currently averaging around 30 seconds for their rubik's cube solves.

Some people may think that the above levels of preparations are excessive and if the DC needs that level of preparation, then they should not be sent to selective schools (somewhat akin to Growth vs Fixed mindset). Yet others may opine that definition of "intelligence" is very fluid (Growth Mindset): all children are inherently very intelligent and capable and that the "intelligence" / "capability" of the children is defined in a large part by their parents, peers and schools (for example, from our DS's current local primary, 8-9 boys are going to Wilsons this year, 2 boys to SGS, 3-4 girls are going to NonSuch (that we know of)). Essentially, you do not need to be Terence Tao to attend a selective school.

In general, for disclosing the amount of efforts required for grammar school preparation, parents are either very secretive or in denial about the work required or simply fail to track the work they have done (e.g. if you are doing 2-3 papers per week for 12 months, and slightly more in last 2-3 months, which I think most of the parents are doing on this forum already, then you already are doing ~200 papers in a year). The more parents disclose (and/or track) their effort along with results, more prospective parents will be able to make a decision about their efforts.
Last edited by dh28 on Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
no_stress
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:44 pm

Re: Systematic preparation approach for Grammar / Private sc

Post by no_stress »

@dh28, this is so, so helpful, thank you so much for all these details! DD is sitting Nonsuch and TGS in autumn, so this is extremely valuable information. Do you know the details of that crash course you refer to? I cannot imagine sending my children to this (6 papers a day for 4 weeks!), but wonder if there is some milder version (1-2 papers a day for one week maybe!).
Schulte
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:42 pm

Re: Systematic preparation approach for Grammar / Private sc

Post by Schulte »

One word of caution, beware of paper / preparation fatigue. I know lots of children including my own who got into one of the Tiffin schools with a lot less preparation than what’s described here. If your child is naturally able, I’d say having a good tutor who can provide targeted support where it is needed is much more important than making the children do hundreds of papers.

When we ramped up practice papers with DD2 during the summer hols, there was no improvement at all and I suspect she got bored and complacent so you can definitely overdo it. Some children are of course more driven and diligent than others. What’s important I think is to build their confidence so they will not shy away from harder questions. And the Tiffin exams have some fiendishly hard questions.

DD1’s tutor also put a lot of emphasis on story writing in the last few months before the exam so don’t forget that writing is a huge part of exam stage 2. The more good books your children read, the easier they will find this.

Finally, the tutor also insisted that the girls needed proper breaks during the holidays and I couldn’t agree more. I know it’s easier said once you’re on the other side but do trust that your child will eventually end up at a school that is right for them. Good luck!
Stroller
Posts: 1546
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 9:39 am

Re: Systematic preparation approach for Grammar / Private sc

Post by Stroller »

Schulte wrote:One word of caution, beware of paper / preparation fatigue. I know lots of children including my own who got into one of the Tiffin schools with a lot less preparation than what’s described here. If your child is naturally able, I’d say having a good tutor who can provide targeted support where it is needed is much more important than making the children do hundreds of papers.

When we ramped up practice papers with DD2 during the summer hols, there was no improvement at all and I suspect she got bored and complacent so you can definitely overdo it. Some children are of course more driven and diligent than others. What’s important I think is to build their confidence so they will not shy away from harder questions. And the Tiffin exams have some fiendishly hard questions.

DD1’s tutor also put a lot of emphasis on story writing in the last few months before the exam so don’t forget that writing is a huge part of exam stage 2. The more good books your children read, the easier they will find this.

Finally, the tutor also insisted that the girls needed proper breaks during the holidays and I couldn’t agree more. I know it’s easier said once you’re on the other side but do trust that your child will eventually end up at a school that is right for them. Good luck!
Good post, Schulte. I particularly agree with the parts I highlighted. For the record - and for balance - DD is at TGS and has never, ever had a tutor. Not on the way in. Not since. Apart from buying practice papers and the like, our only expenditure was on a single mock exam. It’s possible. DD is intelligent, interested in things (not just school) and grew up with plenty of books and educated parents who were able to support her in the 11+ preparation, using the information available in this forum.

I also know children who seemed to be equally clever (also “top table”, etc) and whose families were supportive, who were NOT offered a place. Many of them had tutors in whom their trust was misplaced. People seldom talk about all the time and money wasted on tutors, courses and mocks that did NOT help and may not even have been necessary.

Preparation definitely helps - and some families will pay others to do it - but please don’t feel that throwing loads of money at the problem is necessary (or even useful). Consider whether you would be able to pass the exam yourself. And definitely think hard about whether the tutor would be able to pass it: what is the tutor’s own educational standard? standard of writing? teaching experience?
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