Honest Opinion Please...

[Amber]

Your son's literacy skills will get him high marks in Verbal Reasoning

I do not wish in any way to put the dampener on this - but my DS1 has 'truly outstanding' literacy skills according to CATS, SATS and teachers (proposing to send a novel he has written to publishers - not with my support, I add) and he did not do especially well on our VR GS tests. His maths is weaker, and for the second VR paper here, maths seems a more useful strength - lots of codes etc. Maybe Milla, who I think is our regional expert on this, would comment?

It does, however, sound as though your son is very talented, I was just trying to sound a note of caution re VR.

[mummycomelately]

Hi Loopylou,

I would say you have time to improve his maths and I agree that not everyone gets it right away. So it's worth plugging away and overcoming any mental block about maths now. (I thought the Dispatches programme was really interesting too.)

GS places can be a bit of a lottery. I have heard of 'middle group' children who have surprised everyone by getting in. The bad news is that I also know plenty of boys (my own highly-literate DS included) who are above average, level 5 in everything according to school, but who haven't been successful in GS tests.

The good news (as long as you're able and willing to pay) is that the independents, while still selective, are not as hard to get into as the grammars. The grammars just look at ranking order, while the indies look for all-round potential. Being exceptionally good at writing would be a plus point.

We applied to all the schools you mention so I will send you a PM about our experiences.

And if you haven't done so already, have a look at all the other threads with people's views about applying to these schools - in this area and in surrey.

[Sassie'sDad]

I think that the general advice given in this thread is pretty sound. However, I would like to add that in general maths is pretty badly taught at primary level, usually by teachers who dislike the subject and are not very strong in maths themselves. Consequently pretty low expectations are the norm right from the beginning and there are low levels of confidence.

I would not worry about the rights and wrongs of tutoring in this subject: provided your child is willing and the additional help is based on 1) a thorough assessment of their capability/level (from the perspective of someone who takes all comers i.e. 11+ and Common Entrance not merely primary school assessment) 2) is used to running small groups of similar aged children for remedial work.

I found with mine once they saw they were far from the bottom of the pile and had really inspired fun teaching they improved dramaticly. This didn't come in five minutes but it has been a permanent change for the better. Lastly, recent research into the brain seems to indicate there are two categories: those who have a specific talent for maths and those who don't and no amount of teaching will move an individual from one to the other.

[nissi]

Hi Loopy
I live in the same sort of area as you. We have had the opposite progblem with DS maths being very strong and English average. Re: the GS all of which ae superselective with no catchment area- an aggregate score is wht they work on so an outstanding score in one paper may boost an average score in the other. they all do maths and english and i dso not think there is any wieghting for maths.
I totally agree with the poster who recommended coaching for maths as very often it is simply a confidence thing as well asknowing and understanding methods etc. bear in mind that the other children sitting exams with your DC willl have probably had some coaching. Most kids just need to get used to the format and pace of exams.

All the indies in our area test for maths and english and some verbal reasoning. the indies also use the interview process as an important part of the exams as some do not do so well in the written exams but are obviously intelligent bright kids at interview and are given a chance based on this.
Consider Royal russell School which is not quite as selective- but still tests and there is a small school in west wickham called St Davids college I think, which i know very little about. Excuse my typo's!
In a rush....

[loopylou]

Thank you so much for your replies and for your advice. I won't take any offence at all - I quite understand that with over 1000 applicants, the schools can probably fill their numbers with children who match my son's ability in literacy and also have a comparable ability at maths as well.

The indie options sound very interesting and I will certainly look into these more. We hadn't really thought about education post 11 until recently and its a bit more complicated and hit-and-miss than we had anticipated with lots of schools we've never even heard of.

In terms of personality my son is quiet, serious and shy. He is not overly competitive (in fact I suspect he enjoys literacy because he likes getting good results with minimal effort ). Again this is something we would consider and may make GS unsuitable even if his maths improved with his tutor.

Ooops I am not painting a very good picture of him - he is a lovely little chap - well behaved and bright but I want to be realistic and I don't know where he fits in when he's neither an excellent all rounder or a dominant, competitive personality but is quite bright and in danger of coasting perhaps at a state comp.

[doodles]

Just wait a little and see what the coaching does for him. DS1 was a real panic pants when it came to Maths - he went to a tutor for confidence and is now flying - it really was a matter of confidence and knowing/believing he could do it.

I know he felt so much better knowing he could ask the tutor to explain something. It was like his own security blanket.

[sherry_d]

My son has just started having maths tuition after school but I have mixed feelings really as I don't want him to pass an exam due to coaching if he'll sink later on.

I really understand what you mean and I hate that I have to put my baby DD through so much at only 10 but the truth is most kids are tutored to pass. Even with a bright child I doubt they will make it without much practice. Its about grasping the techniques especially timing too, I struggled doing then VR paper myself and needed extra 30mins to complete but with practice it does improve.

Regarding bright DCs I have often wonder how people on here get that info I wonder if its also a confidence thing with the parents as we all would like to think are DCs are clever enough for grammas so I wouldnt be put off by all you read about our "bright" DCs. Its after all an 11+ forum

There is still time for you to work with the chid or get more help on the other subject if you decide to give the 11+ a go. For the indies in your area there was a thread here on whitgift and trinity and from memory it seems almost everyone in that thread got either whitgift or trinity. Some didnt get the bursaries or scholarships they wanted but it seems it isnt as hard and most of those are also waiting for the grammar schools so I am sure those schools get a lot of movement too after national allocation day next week. It seems the grammars you have are pretty hard to get into than indies. I read somewhere that Tiffins had over 1000applications

[Amber]

Just wait a little and see what the coaching does for him.

And maturity plays a part too. My DD was also a panic-pants (like that phrase Doodles!) about Maths at primary school. With a truly brilliant teacher at secondary, who started every single topic by going back briefly to Year 4 level, to give them confidence, she has improved so much that she is top set and looking at an early GCSE. I reckon this is 50% a great teacher and 50% renewed self-belief and maturity. Of course, which school will encourage and develop these qualities in your DS is the big question!

[tranquillity]

Hi Loopylou.

Something that's been written about boys at school has just rung a bell with me. I found with both my sons, both excellent at maths, not that good at english, that they were very competitive and driven with anything maths/science related, and very reticent about anthing involving written essay style work.

Years of experience taught me that once they gained some confidence with their english work, they became far more focused and interested, and they started to enjoy the written stuff. My eldest son is even doing a degree now that involves a lot of essay writing - to my amazement!

I think that boys especially often tend to be a bit withdrawn over things that they know they aren't that good at, so as not to, well, lose face; and I've found they hate to show they are upset because they feel they're failing. And if you try to ask them, or discuss with them, what's up, they withdraw even more. Oh, and once they withdraw a lot, they stop progressing, start going backwards, withdraw some more, not a happy circle to be stuck in.

Therefore, anything - like good teaching/tutoring - that increases their confidence, and breaks a potentially destructive cycle, can only be for the good. I've found with my boys that once their confidence increases, so does their 'drive' for the subject. Then they start to run!

ps my youngest ds just passed into a fab indie that included a written english exam. He only did half of the english paper but a great result in maths apparently saw him through. So the indi route may be a good one for your son too!

[nissi]

Loopy, please do try coaching . I really think it is worth it. You have quite a bit of time if you start soon and you'd be amazed at the difference it makes. GS apparently brings out the best in some kids and I don't think it's only for the super- driven. Could it be that your son has no competition really in English / Literacy as he is top of his class, but just lacks confidence in the maths? Coaching should only help him be more comfortable with the principles and confident at tackling problems and if it does this then it is a good thing. It doesn't have to be geared solely to passing 11+ exams. If after a little while you aren't convinced then you can always leave it off.

As I said earlier, my son has the opposite problem ie struggles with english, but is really good at maths and science. It took him just understanding a few creative writing principles to see him through the exams. Now that he has grasped them his writng at school has improved dramatically and though it still isn't his favourite subject, the coaching helped.

For maths I have personally found the Stephen Curran books really excellent. I used them with DD - now 18 and on her way to Uni and DS has also used them. In fact Ds just loved the books and worked through them largely without any input from us. There is also a sereis on creative writng and verbal reasoning by the same author, but I have no real experience of these. You might want to try those with DC at home....

Tranquility- Bless you for your post! It as though you have just profiled my DS! I do get quite distressed when he doesn't allow me to probe when something is obviously bothering him- happily he seems to be at a good place right now...