Larger class sizes in prep schools than I'd imagined

[Amber]

Phaedra, I think we might be saying the same thing. It is my view that selective education ostensibly by ability will inevitably turn into selection by social class, because the children whose parents are able to access the routes into grammar schools will be those, on the whole, who are wealthy enough to afford tuition, who read certain sections of the press and who are just 'in the know'. I absolutely agree that the most disadvantaged in society have no way into good schools, whether they be private, grammar or 'good' comprehensives. I have also worked in many schools, though not, with only one exception, in a 'good' school: I actually prefer schools outside the leafy suburbs and my current jobs (3) are all in schools which are or have been in difficulties - one is in special measures and another has notice to improve. I would not want to work in either a grammar school or an indie, though 2 of my children now attend one. There would be too many parents like me! You might not believe that we actually chose a primary school with what is a genuine social mix - situated where it is the catchment area includes one of the 'worst' parts of town, and there is only a small number of middle class families like ours there. My children have been really, really happy, have achieved a lot more highly than they were doing at an indie, and really do have friends from all kinds of backgrounds. 2 of them have moved from there to the private secondary sector, with no squeals. So I do feel qualified to state my opinion.

I also agree with you that 24 is nothing to get upset about, and in my view is better than 12. Individual teacher attention does not necessarily lead to better education, unless a child has complex special needs. I admire your idea that one can state an opinion on class sizes without offering some kind of value judgement, and perhaps I am just weak at arguing, but unless the idea that small classes are a good thing is challenged, any further discussion on the subject seems meaningless.

[sherry_d]

But why is there so much obsession with social mix?

I never understand why people think its important they "mix". It never happens when its forced.
Sorry for going OT

[Amber]

I think the original reference was not so much to social mix as in mixture, sherry, but to the limited options for mixing when there are very few children in a class. My DD was at a very small school and because there weren't many children in the class, it was harder to break into the girly cliques. The later references are to the opportunities offered to children from different backgrounds, and the lack of these opportunities for certain sectors of society.

For us, the opportunity to mix with children from backgrounds different from our own has been a very positive side-effect of choosing the primary school we did - our initial choice was based more on what we saw as the vibrant and exciting atmosphere in the school, the outstanding commitment and professionalism of the staff and the cutting edge creativity of the curriculum.

[hermanmunster]

But why is there so much obsession with social mix?

I never understand why people think its important they "mix". It never happens when its forced. In my DD's school we stick like a sore thumb and have very little in common with most families there but I wouldnt care. All that matters for me is that she is settled, happy and gets a good education. If that is provided in a school full of estate kids or rich class I wouldnt care less because I know she knows our values as a family.

Sorry for going OT

I think the only reason for being keen on social mix is that is part of preparation for the big wide world. It can be daunting the first time you come across people totally different from your friends and yourself - need to be aware that they can react differently to things, may have significantly different priorities etc. Don't need to spend all day with full range of people in the world just get the radar fine tuned to differences - can save too many foot in gob situations.

[Waiting_For_Godot]

I'm not sure if there is much advantage to social mixing at school. Having gone to one of the worst comps in Scotland , when I entered the big wide world I was totally myself and confident in my own skin. I assummed everyone else would be like me. I did not get a shock that certain people acted in different ways and I found that if you are confident within yourself then others accept that. However, when I did enter certain inde spheres I started to change and my confidence fell but only because of my lack of material wealth. Not much has changed materially for us but now I am more confident again and low and behold I have more friends. If I'd known about social class on leaving school then I think I would have been much more uptight and potentially bitter towards those who were more fortunate. If someone was rude it was because they were rude, not because I thought they were poor, uneducated, rich, a snob etc.

[Cranleigh]

Just wrote a long reply and lost it.

I wouldn't want my child to stand out as very different to the norm in any school. It may not be PC to admit this but standing out like a sore thumb doesn't do a child many favours, especially when they are very young and still developing as people. Self belief and confidence may well be dented.

I speak from experience. Although I have much more empathy for others than many of my peers it came at far too high a price IMO. I was bait for the teachers who used to gently mock my accent on a daily basis. Green light for the pupils to join in of course. People generally warm to others who are like themselves.

Going back to class sizes I have read some research recently that says a positive impact is only felt when there are 15 in the class or less. My children are currently in classes of more than 24.

[Waiting_For_Godot]

My son is currently in a class of 7 although this is mainly because it is the scholarship form. That sounds tiny but the class is purely for academic lessons. The other 30 kids in his year group join together for sport, debating and other activities and because it's a boarding school his classmates are not just his only friends. In fact, although he gets on well with his class, virtually all of them have "best" friends in other forms within the same year group.

[Freya]

DS (year eight) is in a class of 23 for some subjects and enjoys that number for better debate, opportunities for group working etc. For maths, science, English, geography, history and French he is in a class of 12. Once or twice the classes have joined for e.g. English or maths and DS has said that if there were 23 in his English or maths class all the time he would hate it. With 12 in the class he says he can happily ask for things to be explained / repeated without feeling he is holding things up or taking all the teacher's time.

[phaedra]

If you are interested...Size might matter...

There has been ongoing research into class size. Some research showed that attainment was not adversely affected by larger classes, except in the youngest years. This was true mostly of higher ability classes.


These findings were advertized by politicians eager to save money, but they conveniently forgot to add that it appeared true of more able classes. It was widely mis-reported by the media, quick to castigate lazy teachers but not always so quick to check the veracity of their material.


Hoever, Attainment (results) does not make up the whole of an education.

Here is a link to a more recent paper presented at the highly regarded Institute of Education at UCL: http://www.classsizeresearch.org.uk/aer ... 0paper.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It purports to study more than attainment. It looks at what it calls "classroom processes" for example, the amount of traditional teacher-talks-to-the-whole-class teaching; pupil-teacher interaction; pupil-pupil interaction; on/off task behaviour - what I would see as my child's experience of the classroom.

It is very long. Here is a very brief summary taken from the website for those who want a very quick digest.

"Results showed that as class sizes became smaller there were more times when pupils were the focus of a teacher’s attention, and more times when they were engaged in active interaction with teachers. This effect was found for all groups at both primary and secondary levels. It was also found that pupils’ classroom engagement decreased in larger classes and this problem was particularly marked for the pupils who are already attaining at lower levels. This, in turn, was accompanied by teachers seeking to control low attainers more than other groups in larger classes. It is suggested that small classes can be a valuable educational initiative right through school, but could be particularly targeted at lower attaining pupils at secondary level."


The results seem to show that when classes are large, processes and often attainment are negatively affected. To claim that the quality of the teacher is more important than class size places an unfair burden of reponsibility on teachers and it is dishonest of politicians to reiterate that class size is unimportant. It seems to me that the OP was asking a pertinent question regarding class size and its effect in a prep school.

[ourmaminhavana]

I've found this discussion very interesting. I think there are too many variables to make a definitive rule. I think if the children are bright and well behaved the number is really not a problem, only so far as the poor, conscientious teacher's marking load is concerned.
Many moons ago I taught in a small, private school with classes of perhaps 16, 12, 8. While the bottom set had a lot of personalised attention I think it was definitely a less stimulating environment than in a larger class and as for my 3 'A' level students it was dire....
My own DS is currently at a good grammar in a class of approximately 31 and DD is in a reception class of 30 at a state primary where the Key Stage 2 classes will have around 34! She has one teacher, one full time TA and one morning only TA. Both are thriving!
Good luck to the original OP, but do remember there's more to consider than class size.