Latymer Upper

[sherry_d]

I really dont mind Toby Young, yes it will benefit his children and those of his cronies but a few more will be outside their social circles and that can only be a good thing surely??? Why so much hatred for him? I really dont get it. I just think if somone middle class does something then it will damned for being socially divisive. Whats wrong in his school teaching Latin when they are plenty more providing an alternative to those who loath his Latin ideas?

The govt has clearly failed in providing a good alternative to comprehensive so why cant we give Toby benefit of doubt and see where the school goes. I just think people dont like to see something different, there were loads of applications for the school meaning that a lot of parents are interested and whats wrong with that? Even if all the applications were from middle class should they too not be entitled to a decent state education? Whats wrong in people seeking the best for their children as Toby Young and all those applicants (445 applications for its 120 places) have shown?

People seem to be so hung up on where the kids are going to come from but show me one school which isnt socially selective in one form or the other? Good luck to him and the school, if I lived close enough I would have applied for my DD .

Regarding Latymer, I dont know the motives but it seems unfair to attack them Ealingmum, there were a few rumblings from other local schools saying WLFS will be a threat so its just not indies surely. While I dont know much about London schools, it seems there is intense competition for good state and independent school and I dont see Latymer feeling the heat in any way as I can imagine a few of their kids come from quite some distance away from the WLFS twilight zone.

Final thought. Toby's school has a lot of support from poor ethnic minorities in the area too who clearly want something better. His opponents in his meeting seem to be locals who in my humble opinion wouldnt give a hoot where their kids ended. Its not a perfect admission system but if the school can transform the lives or one or two inner city London kids then that can only be good thing. London has some of the highest cost per head schools, over £8000 for some Hackney schools compared to around £4000-£5000 elsewhere yet they are still the worst perfoming. Its clear its not money but a diff approach required which is what Mr Young is trying to offer. Whether it's going to be a sucess is another matter but I clearly hope it does.

[Waiting_For_Godot]

Thanks Londonmum for your informative post. As always there seems to have been key points left out of the initial post, but hey it was one way of trying to start an argument...

[ealingmum]

The idea that Latin or a liberal arts education is not something that is attractice to working class or BME families is outrageously patronising. Some of the views on this thread can only come from teachers in the state sector whose children are in the private sector.

The whole point of free schools is that they do provide some competition or alternative offer to the existing state schools - that I take as given and expect incumbents to react negatively: they might have to work harder for their children and parents. My initial post was expressing surprise that an indie (one that is on the face of it strong, over-subscribed etc) should attempt to frustrate the establishment of the WLFS on grounds of "traffic" in the area.

[mad?]

The idea that Latin or a liberal arts education is not something that is attractice to working class or BME families is outrageously patronising.

I agree and it is precisely this attitude which was so repugnant about Toby and his cronies in the documentary. I reiterate teh point I made earlier, the school has been supportive (I believ it is the only one that has) of the establishment of the school, it is its siting that it has raised as an issue. Sadly it did not choose to metnion the community groups serving the needs of the underprivileged in the local community who will be displaced by locating the school in this specific building, which IMO is a more pressing issue.

[londonmum]

My initial post was expressing surprise that an indie (one that is on the face of it strong, over-subscribed etc) should attempt to frustrate the establishment of the WLFS on grounds of "traffic" in the area.

I am confused. the planning response I read (which ought to be available on the LBHF website under the relevant application) was not about "traffic" per se, but specific concerns about the number of children potentially using a single crossing over King Street, capacity at the Tube station at peak times, and parking for minim buses given that both schools are likely to want to have mini buses parking in the same street (because of the one way system) to take pupils to off site sports facilities.

I dont recall anything about a indie objecting to a "free school" on the basis of traffic. I appreciate there may be more than one planning response, or that Latymer may have said something else elsewhere. Planning permission for education use is notoriously difficult to get, specially in residential areas, so I read Latymer's submission with interest.

(I was at a planning consultation a few weeks back run by a different authority and neighbours were equally concerned about proposals for a new school. This time for a "comp" which the education authority were clear was going to be designed for local children and would not attract kids from further afield (nothing like low ambitions at the very start!). These residents Mainly lived on the surrounding estate, predominantly tower blocks, yet the issues were the same: rat runs for school traffic; delivery vehicles in the early mornings; playground noise which travels upwards; kinds hanging round school gates or crowding the pavements on their way to the tube. Issues which again are best addressed at the very start, which is why planning consultation is a statutory requirement.)

The Latymer letter struck me as sensible attempt in identifying issues that, with a bit of thought, might be resolvable with support from London Transport, the local highways authority and the Local Authority. It surely is in noone's interest, including that of the new school, for consideration not to be given to what might be done with the local transport infrastructure (not "traffic") to help ensure that the area is not swamped with pupils to the detriment of child safety and local amenity.

It would be useful if Ealing Mum could reference the document she is referring to or copy it here. Otherwise the "debate" is likely to continue to reflect individual prejudice.

[ealingmum]

Thanks Londonmum for that detail. The head has objected in the press on grounds of extra traffic - not sure if he has made a formal input to the planning process but coming out publicly against the school to be permanently sited next door to it is neither charitable (private schools are charties) nor helpful to the need to raise educational standards surely across London and beyond.

[londonmum]

Where, when, how?

I saw what I felt to be a badly drafted article in the London Evening Standard which appeared to be based on the letter which the school did submit and which I have read. The Standard has a habit of writing articles about people, normally celebrities, objecting to various requests for planning permissions, which often involve a certain economy of explanation with the way the planning system actually works.

You like your neighbours and have a certain sympathy with their desire to build an extension, however dont want to lose some of the daylight your house receives. With luck the applicable planning policy/guidance supports your concerns. Rather than speak to them directly, which you would find difficult, you write a letter to the planning authority at the point when you either receive a consultation letter, or notices go up in the street, stating your concerns. The planning permission then has conditions attached which take account of your concerns. Or better still your neighbour's architect speaks to the planners and resubmits his plans with your concerns in mind. You remain good friends with your neighbour. You have not had a row over their extension, nor are you resentful over your loss of sunlight. This is the way planning works (or should). I read the Latymer letter as raising issues that public authorities such as LBH&F and TfL would need to address if the traffic jam which is known as the Hammersmith school run does not get worse. (And please assure me that none of the free school pupils will not be dropped off by car. The inability of lots of West London secondary children to use public transport is itself worth a whole thread.)

It made a good press story, but quite a leap to suggest that:

"it is neither charitable (private schools are charties) nor helpful to the need to raise educational standards surely across London and beyond."

Private schools are all very different, and not all are charities. Latymer is actually a pretty classic charitable school founded by a Victorian called Latymer who was involved in the foundation of several schools bearing his name including a north London Grammar. Like the schools founded by Alleyns in Dulwich, the Latymer schools have strong charitable aims and are pretty good on the bursary front. My daughter does an out of school activity there and Saturday mornings are busy with a range of kids using the music centre and sports facilities including a group of inner city kids using the pool and playground, and also a diving group with a number of disabled members.

I find the idea that private schools are in some way automatically unacceptable and whatever they do is criticised, distasteful. A large proportion of Latymer's intake both at 8+ and11+ come from the state sector, including many from Ealing. It might be interesting to know how many also had a go at 11+ schools such as Tiffin, but did not get the school of their choice. A lot I expect. Similarly Latymer is one of the schools that is often used as a fall back for those who don't get St Pauls or SPGS, though has real strengths and is sometimes chosen ahead of those schools by parents who want a school that is more down to earth, less of a hot house, and mixed. Both my children tried Tiffin and failed, one quite miserably. They are now in the private sector. Life is easier if you have very clever kids, are religious, rich enough for fees not to hurt, or live in the leafy catchment of a nice state school. Education in London is quite complicated, with most having to make difficult decisions. It is possible to occupy a moral highground, but from a different perspective that highground looks pretty slippery.

[mad?]

Life is easier if you have very clever kids, are religious, rich enough for fees not to hurt, or live in the leafy catchment of a nice state school.

Indeed, the moral high ground is a lonely place and I have only ever met disdain for the choices I have made from those who are fortunate enough not to have had to make them. By this I mean fortunate enough to qualify by means of location, religion, tutoring or academic brilliance to be able to spout off about the evils of the indie system whilst happily playing the system, paid for by me, to ensure that their children do not have to mix with people 'like that'. To pretend that any of these choices are anything else is ridiculous. This 'debate' is going nowhere despite Ealingmum's best efforts. But in response to previous postings, I am not a teacher (state or otherwise), my DC got into Tiffin, and my perspective is based on the uncomfortable truth of London life without the cosy fall back of a state funded 'private' (for effectively that is what they are) religious option.

[Chelmsford mum]

The trouble with all these threads that get tetchy, is the huge generalisations that get posted.Not all state comps are the same, or indeps or even religious schools.Not all of the latter are even providing a better education, which seems to be the assumption of some of these posts. In our town it was the a Church secondary school that got put into special measures.
(Before anyone leaps on that last comment - just want to add one of mine is in a church school - not anti them -just saying that generalisations encourage everyone to polarise)

[Loopyloulou]

The idea that Latin or a liberal arts education is not something that is attractice to working class or BME families is outrageously patronising. Some of the views on this thread can only come from teachers in the state sector whose children are in the private sector.

Hello ealingmum
I'm just curious to know what a "BME" family is ?