overtutored children

Independent Schools as an alternative to Grammar

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hermanmunster
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Location: The Seaside

Re: overtutored children

Post by hermanmunster »

Yes there are always some who will have no trouble having done very little prep.

At DDs school the ones who went to tutors for months were the ones who didn't get a GS place - having said that, presumably the parents appreciated that it may be a problem and hence arranged the extra sessions.

Just doing lots and lots of extra work will not get a child a place at their desired school
mystery
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Re: overtutored children

Post by mystery »

Interesting what you say Mazer about GL assessment NVR and IQ. I know tutors here in Kent who think the same, and yet this is the paper that seems to be one of the most criticised in the search for the holy grail of "tutor-proof" exams.
Bestichka
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Re: overtutored children

Post by Bestichka »

When looking at (over)tutoring IMO we should distinguish between trying to pump up some specific exam-related stuff into a DC who is not particularly academic in that area and would never pass 11+ otherwise, and between using tutors' help to cover gaps left by some sad schools with too large classes and less than ideal teachers who are overstretched at that. I was appaled to discover gaps in math our "good" (OFSTED) school left - no way we could have coped without external help. We're now in a situation where we have to continue with a math tutor up until end of Y6 to solidify this, despite winning a place at an indie. I do not regard this as overtutoring. And this forum is full of such examples, sadly.
Oschi
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Re: overtutored children

Post by Oschi »

Pumpkin Pie wrote:
MAZER66 wrote: It's a "nuclear war "out there, the days when a rough diamond could walk into an 11+ exams and pass are long, long gone :cry: :cry: :cry:
Have to disagree there. My DS didn't even have a go at one practice paper before his 11+. Passed with flying colours! So, it can be done! :wink:
It's a bit early to say, but DD has had 0 hours of tutoring and no extra work or help with homework. And she's so far gotten to the interview stage at all schools applied for (SPSG, CLSG etc). Fingers crossed for "a rough diamond could walk into an 11+ exams and pass". :D

DD is at a state school, and English is our second language too.
Paulatim
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Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:25 pm

Re: overtutored children

Post by Paulatim »

Hi again and thank you for sharing your thoughts.
I wished I had a "rough diamond" , but my daughter is just a normal kid and I think the tutor helped her.
We obviously all do what we think best for our kids!
MAZER66
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Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:54 pm

Re: overtutored children

Post by MAZER66 »

mystery wrote:Interesting what you say Mazer about GL assessment NVR and IQ. I know tutors here in Kent who think the same, and yet this is the paper that seems to be one of the most criticised in the search for the holy grail of "tutor-proof" exams.
In my experience it's almost always the NVR that students fail to finish in the acual 11+. The reason is GL practice papers are based on average 30 seconds to answer a question, the real thing is harder. Your child should be working towards 25-20 seconds per question.
It's very interesting how a bright child progresses whilst being tutored with NVR. Lets say we just start with the 8 GL papers, you explain the rules with examples ( 2-lessons), now with a good candidate paper 1 average 50%, paper 2=60%, paper 3=75% by paper 4 they are hitting 85% paper 5 aprox 87% (remember, they have never done any NVR before).
O.K., you now have 3 papers to go, you suddendly find a wall of diminishing returns next 2 papers only 5% is added, so now you're up to 90%.
With most kids, whatever they do after that, marks stay about the same!! (so when confronted in the intensely stressful situation in their first public exam they have done and if they simply cannot see their way through the question, a negative feed back loop builds up, anxiety increases, the clocks ticking "tick-tock-tick-tock, the anxiety increases further, the breathing pattarn changes, they start panting, blowing off CO2. Metabolitc alkalosis is taking over, the student feels light headed, pins and needles in the extremities, heart racing ten to the dozen, increasing anxiety further. It's fascinating watching this, at this stage all is lost, the child simply cannot clear his/her mind, start afresh, they simply do not have the skills to move on and forget, almost ALL 10yr olds are too immature to understand what is happening to them and how to control it).
It is the most common reason a child gets brain "freeze" is NVR and some sadistic schools put NRV first!! In essence, that is why the test is relatively short, 5 rules thats all, thats 120 i.e 5! potential combinations if the question is operationally asymetrical, (to be honest most are not i.e the order of the rules do not effect the correct answer), still a big ask in 20-25 seconds to complete the test.
There is more anxiety, hyperventilation and vomiting due to this one test then maths. VR and English combined and the most common reason good GS students fail. IMO
Consequently, I spend almost 2 whole lessons on counselling my students on how to cope with stress and methods of contolled breathing and this is why Dear Mollyb, my students out-perform any of their prep school counterparts, despite their excellent teachers(?) at a fraction of the cost! (Just because everyone's been to school, does not mean they're a specialist at education. Sorry to blow my own trumpet)
Last edited by MAZER66 on Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
twelveminus
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Re: overtutored children

Post by twelveminus »

My son (at a prep school FWIW) is almost completely unfazed by stressful situations and seems to perform better under pressure.

We did one at home the night before the 11+ and he didn't get close to finishing it because we had Christmas music on the radio and he was concentrating on that more than the exam. :lol:

Another parent told me that their child seems good at home but then scored only a mediocre score in the formal assessment, whereas my son did (IMO) only mediocre at home and then very well on the formal assessment. I wasn't sure whether this was just parental BS on their part 'oh yes, little Johnny is a genius really, no matter what the scores say', but I guess it makes sense to a degree.

You do have to make the most of your child's strengths, and work on their weaknesses.
twelveminus
Posts: 208
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Re: overtutored children

Post by twelveminus »

Just to add to that there are quite a few scholarships each year from my son's prep school to the country's top-performing senior schools.

Anyone who thinks that a prep school is to prepare your child for NVR/VR tests is I think missing the point. You can prepare your child for these yourself, and frankly one-to-one is more effective than what any school can offer.

Prep schools are intended as an environment for education, and reducing this to success in an 11+ or 13+ test rather misses the point of all those Latin lessons, music concerts, cricket matches against other schools, and the other things that a prep school will offer.

The Common Entrance exam at 13+ is very broad-based and is certainly not something that is tutored for, since it covers around a dozen subjects, whereas 11+ exams consisting perhaps of as little as VR and non-VR are ripe for individual tutoring.
tigger2
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:35 am

Re: overtutored children

Post by tigger2 »

Both my two dc's have gone through state primary education and one has had a couple of years at a prep. We are in West Kent where there is lots of competition for places at the local super selective grammars and also the very popular independent senior schools. Most children here are tutored before they take the 11+....I would say that my definition of overtutored is the child who has 3 tutors for the 11+ and I can say,hand on heart ,that I know many parents that do this. This tends to consist of 2 11+ tutors and a maths tutor or 2 maths tutors and an 11+ tutor. Also,children in year 2 are now being tutored for the 11+ and parents intend to keep going every week until the end of year 5.
There seems to be tutoring going on at the indies for the 11+ but I know of only one child being tutored for CE in years 7 and 8. I don't know if this is average but locally 11+ tutors are rife :lol: but there are not many that tutor for the common entrance exams
tiffinboys
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Location: Surrey

Re: overtutored children

Post by tiffinboys »

tigger2 wrote: but there are not many that tutor for the common entrance exams
Perhaps they are all doing 11+ prep now. Even 20% success could be claimed as a great one; but at 13+ CE, they would be easily found out.
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