Top Independent v Top Grammar

[pheasantchick]

Why don't you both schools again, and see what feels right? Try to forget the grammar/indie labels and just look at the school, facilities, academic record, pastoral care etc.

[MAZER66]

My,we have been bussy whilst Ive been on my hols.
I apologise in advance if I cause any offence in advance.
I know that you are all trying the best for your children and have/will be investing a considerable amount of your hard earned cash to give your loved ones the best advantage in a very competitive world we live in, and I am mindful that most parents on this forum are not overtly weathly , and have to go "with out" in many ways, it is admirable that you place such value on education as I do, now enough of my patronising rubish! down to bussiness
If all else was equal I would choose state grammar for obvious finacial reasons.
but what if money was no object???
I would still choose state maintained Grammar why???
1) Top Russel Group Uni's and for the most competitive courses , natural sciences i.e STEM subjests, medicine, dentistry, Law ect not including P.P.E oxford's equivalent to media studies(joke!)(by top uni,s I mean the top U.K uni's in the top 50 of the World Ranking not the rankings produces by students themselves as per the Guardian!) are under extreme pressure due to the way they now funded to accept more and more kids from the state sector.Today the indies which produce 10-40% of their intake to oxbridge will find that over the next decade that will drop by at least 50%
2) Indies have the advantage of networking?
This is probably still true for high status, traditional Public Schools eg. Eton, Westminster, Winchester, MGS (not so relevant to the more minor Public Schools). However, this advantage is diminishing rapidly as the top echelons of the top Uni's is gradually being displaced from the private sector to the State educated sector (it's interesting, isn't it, for the second most importnat job in the UK, whwere it really counts< for the job of the new Govenor of the Bank of England, no applicant came from the independent sector. This is truly amazing, considering we are one of the financial sectors of the world and supposedly have the best independent school sectors in the world, no one from the UK was up to the job and we had to import someone from Canada to do it.
3) Indie schools produce more rounded people.
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I've asked my DH who is an Admissions tutor for Manchester Medical School for what he feels makes a "rounded"individual and his opinion, not mine, is that he does not care if your child is a grade 8 distinction at the piccolo, head boy/girl or sings for the Westminster choir, what he wants to see in his prospective students are the following attributes:
a. Self ambition (not parental/middle class ambition)
b. Hard working
c. Resilience
d. Self confidence
In two of these four, State children far out-perform their Indie counterparts ie. hard work and resilience. Ambition is about equal between the two and the Indies definitely take it on the self confidence aspect. What he's really looking for is resilience to come through adverse circumstances. A child who makes it through difficult times, without any particular advantage, living with and being a part of a diverse community is, on balance of probability, much more likely to be empathetic, sympathetic and have greater communication skills to relate to people of all stratas of society.
In short, a State education gives you a more rounded personality, not less!!!
Of course, many Indie children go through adversity as well, illness, bereavement, family breakdown and this is always taken into consideration.
St. George's Medical School has proven that State kids who enter medical school, even with slightly lower A Levls, out perform their Indie counterparts, even though most of the private educated students have gained higher entry grades.
At least at Manchester, the minimum entry grades for Med School are AAA. This is considered sufficient to be able to keep pace with the extremely demanding and intense course. However, lots of med students at Manchester have much higher grades, particularly from the top Indie sector and A*A*A*A* for our students is not uncommon. However, evidence shows they do not do significantly better and, in some cases, worse than State kids who only managed the minimum 3 A's.
Again, I apologise for upsetting anyone who is under tyhe impression that Independent education necessarily should or does afford them an advantage over the rest of our children. The actual evidience shows otherwise and this will become more apparent over the next decade or two.

[Wonder Woman]

What a massive sweeping generalision. I am aghast !

[MAZER66]

so which bit of my statement do not agee with, but provide the evidence I'm not interested in opinion X

[pheasantchick]

Mazer has only given her/his opinions, and provided explanations to these opinions. It goes against the assumption that indie are superior, which is held by many people. I found his/ her opinions interesting.

[Tdada]

we will never know what the right answer is....

[tabasco]

I think in 8-9/10 cases the choice have already been decided even well before the outcome is known. The only surprise is mostly being offered a scholarship/bursary and don't known what to do! My opinion is if all things are equal than go with your gut instinct. It is less likely to regret later. It is your child that is going to the school and not someone else child.

[simon]

Hmm, I see a lot of talk about evidence in this thread but mainly a lot of hot air. The fact is that the state system doesn't produce a sufficient number of good quality scientists and linguists and the best universities are therefore stuck with the independents. A few depts at a few universities tried to do without independent school applicants and the effect on the quality of their undergraduates was so dramatic that the policy was abandoned. Grammar schools are no longer allowed to select a large proportion of their applicants and it shows in what they produce.

[mad?]

Why don't you both schools again, and see what feels right? Try to forget the grammar/indie labels and just look at the school, facilities, academic record, pastoral care etc.

That's a good idea. It is perhaps best not to see the labels and actually look at the schools in terms of what is best for your child and family. I would be cautious about any advice you get which claims that either system is better than the other in its entirety, as schools in all categories vary hugely as do children and families in their wants and needs. We found the decision difficult, but in the end a variety of factors including travel time and wanting co-ed swung it for us. For others there will be other considerations and to a degree it is important to try to ignore that and concentrate on what is important to you rather than someone else. Good luck.

[hermanmunster]

Grammar schools are no longer allowed to select a large proportion of their applicants and it shows in what they produce.

Goodness ... have we missed something - I know that quite a few of the Yorkshire "grammars" are really comprehensives but didn't realise it was more widespread!