Independent vs Grammar Schools an Old Debate

[Rosy Pippin]

It's a legitimate debate to have and some people will have to make the difficult decision so here goes with some sweeping generalisations and a bit of guesswork:

Class sizes: Smaller in indies but check before buying.
Teaching: About the same? GS are often good CV schools so good teachers can move on. (Best teachers may often be found in comps as many disagree with selective/ private education). Teachers don't have to be qualified in private schools but of course, most are.
Facilities: Usually better in most indies. GS sometimes need a bit of a lick of paint but have all the basics.
Money: Indies have more to spend but is it sometimes wasted on glossy brochures etc.?
Regulation: GS more tightly regulated. More flexibility for indies but less likely for external bodies to pick up on bad processes?
Sport: Usually better facilities at indies. Could sporting scholarships lessen the chance of your kids playing representative sport?
Other extra curricular: All schools have quite a lot going on.
University: Maybe a good state school may find it easier to get people to top unis these days? Could there be a slight anti-indie bias? Are networks stronger at indies, though?
Results:
GCSE results in 2014 A*/A %

James Allen Girls 98
King's 97
Tiffin Girls 92
Henrietta Barnett 91
QES, Barnet 90
St Olaves 88
Wimbledon High 88
Hampton 87
Dulwich 87
Sutton Grammar 86
Putney High 86
Nonsuch 84
Kingston Grammar 83
Whitgift 82
Wallington High 82
Wilson's 81
Tiffin Boys 77
Wallington Boys 75
Epsom 72
Surbiton 71
Sutton 64
Croydon High 55
Graveney (part-sel) 50

You'd probably be very happy if your kids are at any of these schools.

Oh yes, are the indies worth £100k more? Up to you...

Panic attack - thank you - I found this really useful. We don't have grammars in our area (Herts) only selectives or comprehensives. I have done several tours and am coming to the same conclusion: is an indy worth the £100k+ fee. The main difference that I can see is the class size in the independents we visited which would suggest more teacher time for explaining lessons and, let's face it, I could buy the odd bit of extra tuition with £100K in my pocket.

In the old days (ok my days), the main difference that I could see at uni was that the indie kids were SO confident in comparison to comprehensive peers. Does anyone have a more up to date view on this?

[stummyuk]

Which of the schools listed above are tier 1 and tier 2?
Where can I find that defines which independent schools belong to which tier?

[Amber]

[In the old days (ok my days), the main difference that I could see at uni was that the indie kids were SO confident in comparison to comprehensive peers. Does anyone have a more up to date view on this?

I have a personal view which broadly accords with that, yes. From what I can tell, at many 'top' public schools you are essentially paying for your child to have his or her sense of self worth increased to the point where it greatly exceeds that of the average state-educated child. While undoubtedly this does confer certain advantages in the job market, whether it is desirable in any wider sense depends on the kind of values you wish to transmit, I guess.

It has taken me most of my adult life to get to a point where I can feel proud of my comprehensive schooling and to be able to feel I am as good as some others with a more illustrious background and shedloads of confidence.

[salsa]

I wonder where this confidence come from? The Eaton headmaster was talking about that saying that children there feel very confident and empowered as they see what previous students have done so they have the confidence to try.
Also, wouldn't you feel very confident if you had to get a high score?
How do grammar school children feel with regards to confidence?

[mad?]

I wonder where this confidence come from?

IME it comes from parents who are like that. My DDs are at a London indie, their friends from state primary went to a huge variety of state and indie selective and non selective schools as our local schools were both religious and therefore not interested in us. Looking at them all now (ages 15-18) their friends vary hugely in this polish/sense of self entitlement/confidence and the determining factor that I can see is their domestic rather than school environment. If only I had know that being tall, smiley, slightly too loud and wearing Boden clothes were so important when they were younger

Incidentally I went to uni from a comprehensive like Amber, it was a long (very long) time ago, but after grammar schools had been 'abolished'. I would lump the grammar kids I met in with the private schools every time. That said, I was the only one on my course from a comprehensive so perhaps that is inevitable!

[MagicKey]

MagicKey
CLSB is a great school, so is Judd, but Judd is free . If I had the choice (I don't, I have girls!) I would prefer the more diverse intake of CLSB, but not more than I would prefer £110K! More than that I would prefer the more local school, whichever that is. CLSB is not 2nd tier, it is an academic school much like a grammar. It does not have IMO what some are inclined to call cachet, what with being in London and diverse, personally I think that makes it more appealing but each to his own. Ignore the results, both schools offer DC more chance to perform well than the majority of schools, DS will do as well at either, if all goes well and he is capable. If not, that is a different question altogether. Good luck.

Thanks for your insight mad? , you are right , it is going to be a choice based on distance , DS etc. I'd also post in the kent section to see what other parents say.

I am also interested to find out, whether generally top private schools do more to get their students to certain well sought after universities / courses , do they have a link ?. Because if their careers team do not do their job well, they may not attract the best children in the future, as university destination is something all prospective parents research before applying.

[Yamin151]

I wonder where this confidence come from?

IME it comes form parents who are like that. My DDs are at a London indie, their friends from state primary went to a huge variety of state and indie selective and non selective schools as our local schools were both religious and therefore not interested in us. Looking at them all now (ages 15-18) their friends vary hugely in this polish/sense of self entitlement/confidence and the determining factor that I can see is their domestic rather than school environment. If only I had know that being tall, smiley, slightly too loud and wearing Boden clothes were so important when they were younger

Incidentally I went to uni from a comprehensive like Amber, it was a long (very long) time ago, but after grammar schools had been 'abolished'. I would lump the grammar kids I met in with the private schools every time. That said, I was the only one on my course from a comprehensive so perhaps that is inevitable!

How about being short, smiley, wearing Primark and slightly too comedic? (Think occasional tumbleweed moment). My kids, one GS, one indie, seem confident enough but I think without arrogance, which I would stamp on...........

[mad?]

My kids, one GS, one indie, seem confident enough but I think without arrogance, which I would stamp on...........

Which support my point, but sadly many parents IME seem to mistake arrogance and rudeness in their DC as confidence and charm

[Amber]

I do think some schools must instil a sense of elitism, of being a 'chosen one' or something. I remember being a bit taken aback at a wedding some time ago, and in another part of the country, when someone asked me which school I had gone to. Given that I was in my 40s I couldn't really think why it mattered or indeed was even interesting as by then I had acquired quite a few university qualifications and a lot of work experience too. Turns out that this person went to what would be regarded as a 'top' school (I didn't know that at the time, but do now from this forum!) and wanted to share that with me in a spirit of open superiority. It was a bit wasted on me though as all I could manage was 'Oh, where is that?' which probably wasn't the response he was after.

So while I am sure mad? is right about parents (and there are plenty who like to show off about their children's attainments) I think maybe some of the 'top tier' (agh what a dreadful concept) schools probably do put out the message that their pupils are something special

sadly many parents IME seem to mistake arrogance and rudeness in their DC as confidence and charm

I agree wholeheartedly. I think the 'in your face' brashness of some kids while parents gaze fondly on is one of the worst facets of 21st century Britain tbh. Confidence isn't everything, and the culture of 'instilling self-esteem' often means shyer, more introverted children are totally overlooked while the loudmouths get all the prizes.

[mad?]

Because if their careers team do not do their job well, they may not attract the best children in the future, as university destination is something all prospective parents research before applying.

I think you are over-analysing things here. I certainly did not look at Uni destinations when looking at schools but I think there would be nothing to choose between these two here. Do remember, that when your DC get 'there', they may well not want to go to whatever you think is an appropriate university.