11 plus or 13 plus?

[SKV14]

MY DS, aged 9, is in a primary school that discourages leaving at 11plus. We would like him to apply for St Pauls/Westminster/Habs. Is there a better chance of entry in these schools at 11plus?

[Daogroupie]

So your ds is at a prep that prepares boys for the 13 plus?

How is their success rate?

They are discouraging parents from the 11 plus because they don't want to have to try and fill all those Y7 and Y8 places when all those successful 11 plus applicants leave at the end of Y6.

Edge Grove, one of our local preps is currently advertising on the back of a bus that leaves from Potters Bar station to try and fill their Y7 and Y8 places so it is a problem for the 13 plus preps.

I know of students who got places at all three of the schools you mention at 11 plus.

At Habs there are a lot more places at 11 plus and students I know of tell me that those who join at 13 plus find it hard to get into the Rugby and Football teams. It also only gives you one term of the subjects before you need to choose your GCSEs.

I would always go for 11 plus but if you are in a 13 plus prep they may well have a "gentlemans agreement" with these schools.

I know of a parent from a local 13 plus school who boasted to me that he did not see a single preparation paper as the school did it all for his son. DG

[Kingfisher]

Some schools take clever state school boys through the 11+ In order to get them up to the same level as he 13+ boys and to fill in the gaps in their learning. When these boys arrive, they will have been taught in larger classes so might not have had as much individual guidance. They won't know Latin or have had as much opportunity for languages, sport etc. You should find out what the provision is like for Year 7 and for Year 9 in your preferred school - I can only tell you what happens local to me. If your son is at prep school he might not require what is being provided.

[grgygirl]

At Westminster Under, you have to choose which entry you will sit for - you can't sit the pre-test for both 13+ and 11+ entry. At 11+ there were 28 places this year intended primarily for state applicants and preps that finish at 1/Year 6. I think, as DAO has said, that there is possibly an unwritten agreement not to take from schools that finish at 13+ at the 11+ entry route. If your headteacher feels that your son is of the right academic level for these schools then they will hopefully be able to fully support entry at 13+ (Whereas you might not get the glowing reference you need if they are aware you may be planning to leave at the end of Year 6).

[FAC51]

At Westminster Under, you have to choose which entry you will sit for - you can't sit the pre-test for both 13+ and 11+ entry.

Not on OP's list, but it's the same for City.

Also, for Westminster and City at least, in terms of purely numerical odds I think 13+ is the better option. So if you're in a 13+ prep which has some track record of getting boys into the Central London public schools, your best bet is to stay put.

GCSE selection isn't a problem as you will already know your DS's strengths and interests from his Prep. And at 13+ senior schools all the boys will be in the same boat, including the ones coming up from the schools' captive preps.

I agree with DG that 11+ is the best entry point for Habs.

[SKV14]

So I've spoken to all the schools concerned, and you are right, for Westminster and St Pauls, 13+ seems to be better, in terms of numbers (Westminster takes around 75 for 13+ and 25-30 for 11+; St Pauls takes 90 and 20) and also they prefer if you apply at 13+ if your prep school goes until 13. The only aberration is HABS which takes 100 for 11 plus and 20odd for 13 plus, but the registrar stressed that the chances at both years are same, around 1 in 4, since many more kids apply at 11plus rather than 13. All in all, I think we are going to stay put till 13plus, especially since the school will definitely prepare DS for 13plus exams.
Thanks so much for the prompt and informed answers.

[Daogroupie]

I am really surprised the Habs 13 plus number is as low as 20. I know of several 13 plus feeder schools who privately guarantee parents a place at Habs at 13 plus. I am not sure how they can fit them all if there are only 20 places. As HABS have 160 boys who sit GCSEs in Y11 I think the number is more likely to be 60 than 20. DG

[Relieved its over]

I agree, habs have an extra 3 classes join at 13.

[FAC51]

I am really surprised the Habs 13 plus number is as low as 20. I know of several 13 plus feeder schools who privately guarantee parents a place at Habs at 13 plus. I am not sure how they can fit them all if there are only 20 places. As HABS have 160 boys who sit GCSEs in Y11 I think the number is more likely to be 60 than 20. DG

Habs is a predominantly 11+ school.

If they took 60 at 13, it would mean only taking 60 at 11. And that's definitely NOT the case.
They have 40-45 transfer from their own prep at 11, and take 100 external. So only 15-20 at 13+.
As final proof - it's what the Registrar told SKV14!

DG, the local 13+ preps may be confident in offering such a guarantee as they know that most boys are targeting other schools at 13, and also because there is no competition ​at this age from the far more numerous local 11+ preps (or state primaries!)

[Middlesexmum]

It also only gives you one term of the subjects before you need to choose your GCSEs.

I have heard at St Albans that 13+ entry boys are being asked to choose their GCSE subjects before even starting at the school!