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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:52 pm 
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Location: Herts
I am aware of the gentlemen's agreements between 13 plus preps and schools such as Habs, St Albans, MT etc.

I also know that none of this is written down in case it is challenged. So can your 13 plus prep actually stop you from applying to a private secondary at 11 plus?

Here is how I think it works but grateful for any insight or amendment.

Let's take Habs as an example.

Habs agree to tell any applicant from the 13 plus preps such as Keble, Lochinver, Aldwickbury, Kingshott etc that they are not able to apply until 13 plus for Y9 entry. In return the preps strongly recommend their schools at 13 plus and the parents are told they have a guaranteed place at Habs if they stay until Y8 at the prep.

However I do know parents who have managed to get an 11 plus place at Habs, St Albans or MT from a 13 plus prep.

I also know that all the 13 plus preps have lots of spaces available in Y7 so there must be many students leaving at end of Y6.

Obviously if they are going to state selectives their 13 plus prep can do nothing to stop them. I know two students from one of these preps currently in Y7 at DAO.

But where do you have to put the pressure? If the 13 plus prep agrees to release them will the 11 plus secondary then let them apply?

I am trying to help a family who are in a 13 plus prep, have registered to sit the 11 plus at a private secondary but are now being told that because they are from a 13 plus prep they are not able to sit for the 11 plus and must wait for the 13 plus.

They have already taken their money so can they really enforce this? Will they actually write and say they can't sit the exam or will they be reluctant to put anything in writing concerning this verbal agreement?

Can both schools just do whatever they like as they are not bound by any codes of conduct or are they?

Any insight at all would be much appreciated to help a family who have just found this out and are very distressed. DG


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:03 pm 
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Hmm, not the same schools, but I know of a family who were at Durston House but got into Hampton at 11+, and another one who were at a prep in Chiswick and got a place at Colet for the 11+ entry, so certainly not unheard of.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:17 pm 
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Daogroupie wrote:
I also know that none of this is written down in case it is challenged. So can your 13 plus prep actually stop you from applying to a private secondary at 11 plus?

Not from what I have seen, although I imagine they can make you feel like you are not playing your part, having enrolled in a 13+ school, much like IME state primaries can make one feel uncomfortable for trying the private/religious/grammar route.
Daogroupie wrote:
In return the preps strongly recommend their schools at 13 plus and the parents are told they have a guaranteed place at Habs if they stay until Y8 at the prep.

I have not heard of parents being told they have a 'guaranteed place' unless they have gone to Colet Court or WUS at11+.
Daogroupie wrote:
I also know that all the 13 plus preps have lots of spaces available in Y7 so there must be many students leaving at end of Y6.
Some of these will have gone to 11+ entry private schools
Daogroupie wrote:
But where do you have to put the pressure? If the 13 plus prep agrees to release them will the 11 plus secondary then let them apply?
I think you may be over thinking this.
Daogroupie wrote:
I am trying to help a family who are in a 13 plus prep, have registered to sit the 11 plus at a private secondary but are now being told that because they are from a 13 plus prep they are not able to sit for the 11 plus and must wait for the 13 plus.
Well done for trying to help them DG, who has told them this?
Daogroupie wrote:
They have already taken their money so can they really enforce this? Will they actually write and say they can't sit the exam or will they be reluctant to put anything in writing concerning this verbal agreement?
Who is they?
Daogroupie wrote:
Can both schools just do whatever they like as they are not bound by any codes of conduct or are they?
Yes but...as more indie schools have gone co-ed or tried to increase their state primary intake 13+ places (at day schools) have become increasingly limited. This is more of a problem for the 13+ preps than the secondaries. I suspect the 'links' that you imply are becoming weaker year on year.
Daogroupie wrote:
Any insight at all would be much appreciated to help a family who have just found this out and are very distressed. DG
what have they been told and by whom?
We only have one 13+ prep locally, all the others have gone to 11+. It feeds Habs and MTS but largely boarding schools, which is often why the parents have chosen the 13+ route.

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mad?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:29 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:01 pm
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Location: Herts
Thank you for the responses.

Heartening to hear of parents who have managed it.

It is the 11 plus secondary who have told the parents that because they are in the 13 plus prep they will not be able to apply for the 11 plus and will have to wait and apply for the 13 plus.

However if they were able to persuade the 13 plus prep to release them then would that mean that the 11 plus secondary would be free to take them if they passed the 11 plus exam?

I agree with you Mad, I personally feel that the 13 plus is on its way out in North London and Herts.

But it seems that escaping from a 13 plus prep at 11 plus will be a problem for some time to come. DG


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:19 pm 
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Daogroupie wrote:
Thank you for the responses.

Heartening to hear of parents who have managed it.

It is the 11 plus secondary who have told the parents that because they are in the 13 plus prep they will not be able to apply for the 11 plus and will have to wait and apply for the 13 plus.

However if they were able to persuade the 13 plus prep to release them then would that mean that the 11 plus secondary would be free to take them if they passed the 11 plus exam?

I agree with you Mad, I personally feel that the 13 plus is on its way out in North London and Herts.

But it seems that escaping from a 13 plus prep at 11 plus will be a problem for some time to come. DG


Hello DAOGroupie
This is just my personal experience of being a parent of a DD studying in a co-ed Prep school in Hampton.
The boys can continue until Y8 in the school.

As a school, I don't believe that our school differentiates; they are all being prepared for the Independent school entrance exams at the moment and the boys don't get excluded from this.

We did meet the Head towards the end of Y4 to talk about what schools would suit her best. Didn't expect him to talk about Grammar schools at all but he was quite happy to discuss them and the chances our DD has at them. I know you can't draw inference from a single experience and also from a school which is not in the same area you are referring to in your post. Just wanted to share my thoughts!!

At the end of the day, a school's head can always make it difficult for boys to leave at 11+ by writing a not so good report . Whether this happens or not is anybody's guess?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:18 pm 
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Daogroupie wrote:
I agree with you Mad, I personally feel that the 13 plus is on its way out in North London and Herts.


I think it depends on which part of Herts you are referring to. I know a number of parents that didn't get the 11 plus outcome they had hoped (despite private tutors, mocks etc.) who have stayed on for 13 plus.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:48 pm 
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I think 13 plus may well be on the way out in my area too.
Epsom and St Johns have now gone to 11 plus and one of our local 13 plus preps has amalgamated with two girls schools to form a new 11 plus coed.
The other 13 plus prep has very small numbers post 11.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:39 pm 
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I also think that 13+ is on its way out for many schools, except a few boarding schools which only take in at 13 - it is increasingly not the thing for day schools and the future of 13+ Preps to go all the way to 13 depends on them feeding a sizeable number of their pupils to that kind of boarding school rather than to day schools.

A number of Preps which predominantly feed day schools are struggling to keep students to 13 because those secondaries are taking in at 11 predominantly, even if they also have a 13+ intake. The secondaries want to guarantee they can fill up and getting an extra 2 years of fees is good for them and this feeds the fears that there will be fewer places at 13 (which is often true) leading to more sitting at 11 instead of 13.....or increasingly pre-testing at 11 for a 13+ place.....which if it is the norm to sit exams in Yr6 then leads to some deciding they might as well leave if they are having to do exams sooner, so they do 11+ not 13+ pre test.

In my experience, most secondaries don't categorically say they won't take those from 13+ preps until 13. Most secondaries are sensitive to the the 13+ desire to keep their students and so don't try too hard to market an 11+ entry to them, although they may push them to pre-test at 11 for 13 rather than waiting to sit exams in year 8. However, if parents apply for 11+, in my experience the schools let them sit. I suspect in the case of the Ops contact, if they really pushed the secondary to take their application, they would. It would probably help them too if they spoke to the Prep first and gained their support, so they could tell the Secondary that they had it - no formal release needed, just support.

Re the Preps themselves, in my experience the 13+ schools make clear that they think it is better to stay until 13 so the full Prep experience can be gained and they strongly encourage staying. In the school I know, a big fuss is made of yr 8 leavers but very little acknowledgement if yr 6 leavers....it's an unspoken 'you are leaving before the end' and more help is given to those prepping for 13+ exams....but that is having to change as more and more of those staying to 13 are needing to do 13+ pre test at 11 so need that prep. However, I haven't known Preps to refuse to support an 11+ application.

I think a lot of this comes down to one communication with schools. If parents really want to do 11+ they should say clearly to the Prep and ask for their support in prepping,mreference writing etc. I think parents can expect to receive this, even if it's not the schools preference. Equally, they should be open with the secondary that they want to go for 11+ even though they have been at the 13+ school.....and make clear that the Prep know their intent. I think the problem comes when Secondaries fear being seen to poach students from 13+ preps - the secondaries want to avoid this as it sours the relationship with the prep who maybe a key feeder. This can all be avoided by everyone knowing the intent of parents and also that all schools involved know exactly what is going on and that the other schools do too. Probably the earlier the communication with the a prep happens about intent, the better.

In my experience discussion about secondary usually starts properly in Yr4 and if a parent knows they want to do 11+ they should say so clearly then and ask about provision for prepping for exams and confirmation that the school will support the application. These meeting are often followed up with a letter confirming the discussion. Parents could ask for it to be included in this letter,for for a separate letter from the Prep confirming they will support 11+ applications (to a particular school if necessary) and then if parents feel it is needed, they can show such a letter to the secondary if there is any awkwardness about accepting an 11+ application.

As paying parents, Preps really need to help parents towards the schools of their choice, and I think most will absolutely do this.....but the sooner a parents intent is made clear, the better....honesty and openness from everyone helps enormously and the sooner the better.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:25 pm 
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Hi DAO,

Sorry, have only just seen this.

Certainly this has always been the agreement between IAPS prep schools and HMS senior schools - the latter should not poach the former pupils at 11. It would certainly damage relationships if scholarships/bursaries were regularly offered at 11, and therefore, where pupils do move at 11, it is usually on less financially beneficial terms than had they stayed until 13.

In terms of how to approach it - I would make a direct approach to the senior school, setting out why a transfer at 11 is in the best interest of the boy: this could be in terms of specialist provision available at the senior school, not at the prep, or being the last child in a family to make the transfer. It could be something to do with the class dynamics - eg we had another local prep close so we suddenly had an influx of boys arriving which changed the dynamics in Y6 considerably. The senior school are more likely to make an exception if it is clear that the boy is a strong candidate and will move elsewhere at 11 (ie to a non 13+ school).


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