In the Lap of the Gods/We Will Never Know.....

[kenyancowgirl]

It is this:

".....Being with like-minded people (rather than those who would rather be elsewhere doing other things)...."

that says to me, I'm afraid, GGirl, that you are coming across as a snob. Because, of course, those of us who choose to send our kids to state school are obcviously inferior to you and not "like minded"...and no-one who goes to a state school can really want to be there...

Good luck to your DD. I hope she gets the school of your choice - and hopefully it is hers too - goodness knows what will happen to her if she ends up somewhere not surrounded by like minded folk....I mean she might get a more real view of how society works, god forbid! And, yes, my tongue is firmly in my cheek - I'm being funny - but it might not feel like it, eh?

[loobylou]

A good friend of mine was bemoaning to me the other day that she will have spent over £70,000 on school fees, is now paying additional money for tutoring in several subjects and has very real (and credible) fears that her children will come out with fewer qualifications than they would have done has they gone to their local comprehensive (a view shared by our mutual teacher friends). Unfortunately they have mixed with "like minded" people who have encouraged socialising at the expense of any studying, rather than mixing with a wide group of people, whereas, had there been a wider "pool" to choose from, their friendship groups might have been better for them.
At 11 it's very difficult to tell which way one's child is likely to develop and what "like minded" will look like.

(PS I have lots of friends with very lovely children who attend independent schools and who remain delightful. I have a smaller - but significant - number of friends whose privately educated children have turned into far more annoying people than almost any of the state educated ones I know.

ETA: I realise that sounds as though I'm holding the schools responsible. I'm not at all. But I'm just trying to say that sending your child to a private school will not guarantee them "nicer" friends).

[North]

How children turn out has in my humble opinion much more to do with how we, as parents, raise them. There are badly behaved children and beautifully behaved children, good crowds and bad crowds in both state and independent schools. Teach them good judgement and they will be fine in either environment. Don't let this guide your decision. Go with what feels right for you and your child. You have a choice that is the key thing - a luxury not afforded by everyone.

[Middlesexmum]

I hope our dc are grounded enough to realise their privilege and in time, give something back to society.

Oh please. Any more cliches? How will they do that, a token few weeks volunteering?

[piggys]

Lordy. The non-thread rumbles on I see.

G-Girl: Yes I am renowned for being 'acerbic'; just as you are acquiring a name for yourself as being smug and condescending. I also give a lot of quite detailed advice about English - what to study, how to study and so on. What kind of practical advice do you offer here? (clue - not the kind that repeats, many times, 'it's in the laps of the gods' which is of no help whatsoever).

There is no point to this thread at all. It is an opportunity for you to boast and you know it. You started off by explaining that you fretted over your ds's school place, got the place you wanted, then proceeded to tell people not to worry as worrying is useless....despite your own rather hyperbolised description of sleepless nights and so on. You then offered your deeply felt philosophy of state education and concluded that with a little luck and a 'good cohort', your ds could have actually had a decent education and not ended up in a crack den on a sink estate. What you didn't understand was that in doing that, and in most of your subsequent posts, you have denigrated state education and presented yourself exactly as Guest55 describes.

Anyway there it is.

[Amber]

I hope our dc are grounded enough to realise their privilege and in time, give something back to society.

Oh please. Any more cliches? How will they do that, a token few weeks volunteering?

Oh dear yes that is truly horrible. Agree MMM.
Not all of us think it is a 'privilege' to be educated in this manner. And no, not sour grapes or jealousy. Genuinely do not aspire to that kind of mindset.

Notwithstanding, congratulations to all the children offered a school place today.

You have a choice that is the key thing - a luxury not afforded by everyone.

Absolutely right.

[Eccentric]

Lordy. The non-thread rumbles on I see.

G-Girl: Yes I am renowned for being 'acerbic'; just as you are acquiring a name for yourself as being smug and condescending. I also give a lot of quite detailed advice about English - what to study, how to study and so on. What kind of practical advice do you offer here? (clue - not the kind that repeats, many times, 'it's in the laps of the gods' which is of no help whatsoever).

There is no point to this thread at all. It is an opportunity for you to boast and you know it. You started off by explaining that you fretted over your ds's school place, got the place you wanted, then proceeded to tell people not to worry as worrying is useless....despite your own rather hyperbolised description of sleepless nights and so on. You then offered your deeply felt philosophy of state education and concluded that with a little luck and a 'good cohort', your ds could have actually had a decent education and not ended up in a crack den on a sink estate. What you didn't understand was that in doing that, and in most of your subsequent posts, you have denigrated state education and presented yourself exactly as Guest55 describes.

Anyway there it is.

Actually a friend of my mother had a son who went to Eton got expelled, ended up in a crack den on a sink estate and unfortunately died of an overdose.

[G-Girl]

Our results all came in yesterday so there will be no need to participate much further but for the last time, I just hoped that I was being helpful. I tried to explain how many of us feel - helpless - as the situation, particularly post-interview, was out of our hands. It is a very odd feeling but if some of you chose to interpret this wrongly, so be it. I believe that some of you also misinterpreted my comments regarding a child not securing their much-wanted place at an independent school. I was suggesting that they could... do just as well elsewhere.

Eccentric: Yes! I was trying to be amusing but appear to failed horribly or some people are so stressed (or enjoy being nasty) that they miss nuances!
Before beginning this process over three years ago, I, too had heard horror stories about pastoral care, which was why we sought out what was available at our dc's school. We were amazed at the level of care and interest shown to each boy and this allayed our fears. However, who knows what may happen in the future. We hope we will be able to spot any signs but this is not an absolute given and as with all parents, we will be watching....
I absolutely agree with you that fantastic results are possible at state secondaries - that's what I was initially attempting to say - if one does not achieve the place initially desired at an independent school, there is life - and success possible! This seems to have been misconstrued (deliberately?) by some people.
What a horrible child you write about! As with everything, each school can produce an egotistical prat or a thoughtful human being but could this child's behaviour have been encouraged by his parents and was not purely down to his school. Who knows?! If my children behaved like that, I would be horrified and quickly disabuse them of any idea of self-aggrandisement.

Kenyancowgirl - Again, read 'state' in my posts (my children were/are at a state school. You seem unable to understand this simple point).
I wrote 'like-minded' as having worked in a 'state' secondary school, I have seen the small number of children who wanted to work being constantly disrupted and undermined by 'non like-minded' children - who were in the majority. Not all state secondary schools are oasis of calm and learning you know! Incidentally, I wonder why you are so interested in the independent forum if you think so poorly of people who wish to educate their children in that sector?
Thank you, yes she did and we will be accepting her first choice place.
I'll ignore the remainder of your silly snide comments (even if these were an attempt at humour).

Loobyloo: You are right, children could form toxic relationships at any school. In my experience though, children seek out friends with similar backgrounds, opinions and families. If children were ghastly opinionated ten-year-olds, the trend will continue, wherever they are schooled.
We are not seeking 'nicer' friends - children will find their own circle of friends, as mentioned above and in my circle of friends (with lovely children) many are state-educated. I still talk to them!!! This was another attempt at humour.....

North: Spot on!

Middlesexmum: As of yesterday, I am afraid I am unable to accommodate you with a story of how my children did well after not obtaining their first-choice place independent school, although I am positive that this does happen - that's what I was initially saying! You seem blinkered.
Oh please! My children give their all to their schools/societies and I am certain they will do so as adults. No cliches, truth. I don't understand why you would want to be so sneery.

Piggys: I don't think I am smug and condescending but it is fine to call me that if it helps you. The idea of 'In the Lap of the Gods' was to declare how powerless we are at this time. Having autonomy at work but being powerless during this process is a very odd feeling. Yes, we did have sleepless nights but far fewer this time, having had time to consider the bigger picture, one that was hard to see with our ds, three years ago.
The fact that our dc obtained a place is hardly a boast, as many other children's parents have reported similar results in this forum. I had to mention it in context of the rest of the post. Actually, I'll boast now that as of yesterday dd has her first choice of schools, too. Now, that is a boast.

Amber: We will have to disagree as I think being in a top academic school is a privilege. In our family's case, one that has been worked for and is appreciated by my ds who knows he has outstanding facilities and teaching staff to help him.
Have you ever worked in a secondary school, oh, I mean a state one? If so, perhaps yours are better than those in our locality. I have, and the level of decorum in the classroom makes it difficult for children who are keen and interested in their work. As a prospective parents when viewing state secondary schools last year, the level of much of the work on display was poor and the most worrying thing was that the schools thought it good. That's why we have chosen the independent route (although I don't know why I should explain to you). To repeat, my children were/are at state primary schools so there is no way I denigrate state education.
We have had three years since our ds went through this same examinations/interview mill and we have concluded that despite and I do mean despite, my last paragraph, given a half-decent school, children could do just as well, of course they could, that is the point of 'we will never know'. For that I have been lambasted. In fact, I think we actually agree that state schools can be good - although you seem unable to accept that they vary as much as do independent schools, there are good and bad in both sectors.

Eccentric: Terrible story but it shows that money does not buy common sense.

Phew! Enough.

[doodles]

I tried to explain how many of us feel - helpless - as the situation, particularly post-interview, was out of our hands

And every other parent in the land feels just as helpless whether they be applying for independent of state places. It's not a phenonomen that is exclusive to the indie sector.

In my experience people on this forum are very generous with their time and help, perhaps it's not always what one wants to hear but on an open forum there will always be differences in opinion. You say that now you have your results you won't be participating further why not stay around and help?

[Amber]

Amber: We will have to disagree as I think being in a top academic school is a privilege. In our family's case, one that has been worked for and is appreciated by my ds who knows he has outstanding facilities and teaching staff to help him.
Have you ever worked in a secondary school, oh, I mean a state one?

Oh yes. I am a teacher. I would not teach in either a grammar school nor a private one. I have worked in many state schools, and for a service which works with children who can't go to school as they are too sick to do so. Funny that the private schools don't want to know in the latter case, and in many instances neither do the grammars. It falls to the state to try and pick up the pieces and provide teachers. So by all means disagree with me but please don't question my credentials. I come from a background where I was the first in my family ever to go to university, from a comprehensive in the Midlands. I have taught in 'difficult' schools and loved it as I could make a difference and worked with some amazing, fabulous young people. I am now doing my doctorate in education so please, whatever you think, do not try and belittle me with 'have you evers?'. I have.