Top state grammar vs top independent offer
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Re: Top state grammar vs top independent offer
This is an interesting question and there are lots of answers as to why people might choose independent over state grammar, if they have offers from both. Some of the reasons are good reasons to make this choice and others,more gals less so.
- first of all, recognise that some people really do have shed loads of money and the fees are a drop in the ocean for them. So the seemingly small extras offered by the independent of smaller classes,nshinier facilities, more trips abroad and perhaps slightly different extra curricular activities are 'worth' paying for, because in terms of sacrifice for those families, there is no sacrifice really, plus they avoid their children facing ever squeezed budgets in state grammars.
- for some people, the independent offers a sensible journey, whilst the state grammar would be a huge schlep taking hours. People will pay to avoid this.
- some people don't even apply for the state grammar but go straight and only for Independent, because they hear about the numbers and tutoring and stress and just decide they don't want to bother with it all and the entry into an Indie might be smoother and easier and less aggravation.
- some choose it because they really want boarding for a variety of reasons
- some choose it because they are aiming for a specific top independent which has a very particular ethos or approach that they value
- some choose it, because they decide that for their particular child, the independent will suit their personality best. Often parents with several children in Independents have them all in different schools - they are choosing for each child and not just the generic 'best' in terms of results or location.
I think it's hard to understand for parents who are thrilled with the state grammar option and who look at the Independents and can't see anything extra being provided, or not anything extra that they would value for such a large amount of fees. In many cases, I think people are right and that many Independents don't offer significantly more and sometimes less. For most people, for whom the fees would mean sacrifice, there does need to be something significantly better and it often doesn't look like £18k better. For those people, the state grammar is a real gift and they are often thrilled with it - it's an academic education with lots of extra curriculars, all for free. Fantastic.
Perhaps when people have lots and lots of money, they simply expect more choice and choice over seemingly small things, and are willing to pay for that very tailor made choice. An academic education with extra curriculars is just a given, not something to be thrilled by. Then they are looking for very specific schools where a particular sport is a strength, or there is lots of provision in the school holidays too, or particular languages are studied, or where they feel their sensitive boy will be really looked after, or where their families boho values are represented, or where they think the Head is marvellous, or where they went themselves because that's important to them, or where it's near facilities for sailing or skiing or because they hear about huge A level classes in state schools and would rather have a small group of 6, or whatever.
Some of these things mentioned above might sound petty and minor and not worth paying for. I think sometimes there is a different mindset, especially if people have loads and loads of money. Yes they want the academics too and take that as a given, but they want other stuff too and place a high value on it and also on the journey through school itself too. Perhaps they are less focused on results and spend less time studying the league tables for the 3% advantage one school might have over another ....it is a given that the school will deliver great results, so what else is there too?
For people who apply to Independents in case they don't get into the state grammar and then get offers from both, or for those for whom the fees are a big push, then absolutely the state grammar makes perfect sense and is a brilliant option to have. Most people are not absolutely loaded, so for most people, if they have both options, state grammar does make more sense and is often the choice in the end. However, we know lots also go for the Independent. It actually is a bit different to state grammar school, and I think that's hard to grasp for some enthusiasts of the grammar system. People are sometimes choosing independent because they offer something a bit different and something that family values and is prepared to pay for....and because they can afford to do so, they choose to spend their money on that school, in order to get the things they value. It's not always the daft choice it might seem.
- first of all, recognise that some people really do have shed loads of money and the fees are a drop in the ocean for them. So the seemingly small extras offered by the independent of smaller classes,nshinier facilities, more trips abroad and perhaps slightly different extra curricular activities are 'worth' paying for, because in terms of sacrifice for those families, there is no sacrifice really, plus they avoid their children facing ever squeezed budgets in state grammars.
- for some people, the independent offers a sensible journey, whilst the state grammar would be a huge schlep taking hours. People will pay to avoid this.
- some people don't even apply for the state grammar but go straight and only for Independent, because they hear about the numbers and tutoring and stress and just decide they don't want to bother with it all and the entry into an Indie might be smoother and easier and less aggravation.
- some choose it because they really want boarding for a variety of reasons
- some choose it because they are aiming for a specific top independent which has a very particular ethos or approach that they value
- some choose it, because they decide that for their particular child, the independent will suit their personality best. Often parents with several children in Independents have them all in different schools - they are choosing for each child and not just the generic 'best' in terms of results or location.
I think it's hard to understand for parents who are thrilled with the state grammar option and who look at the Independents and can't see anything extra being provided, or not anything extra that they would value for such a large amount of fees. In many cases, I think people are right and that many Independents don't offer significantly more and sometimes less. For most people, for whom the fees would mean sacrifice, there does need to be something significantly better and it often doesn't look like £18k better. For those people, the state grammar is a real gift and they are often thrilled with it - it's an academic education with lots of extra curriculars, all for free. Fantastic.
Perhaps when people have lots and lots of money, they simply expect more choice and choice over seemingly small things, and are willing to pay for that very tailor made choice. An academic education with extra curriculars is just a given, not something to be thrilled by. Then they are looking for very specific schools where a particular sport is a strength, or there is lots of provision in the school holidays too, or particular languages are studied, or where they feel their sensitive boy will be really looked after, or where their families boho values are represented, or where they think the Head is marvellous, or where they went themselves because that's important to them, or where it's near facilities for sailing or skiing or because they hear about huge A level classes in state schools and would rather have a small group of 6, or whatever.
Some of these things mentioned above might sound petty and minor and not worth paying for. I think sometimes there is a different mindset, especially if people have loads and loads of money. Yes they want the academics too and take that as a given, but they want other stuff too and place a high value on it and also on the journey through school itself too. Perhaps they are less focused on results and spend less time studying the league tables for the 3% advantage one school might have over another ....it is a given that the school will deliver great results, so what else is there too?
For people who apply to Independents in case they don't get into the state grammar and then get offers from both, or for those for whom the fees are a big push, then absolutely the state grammar makes perfect sense and is a brilliant option to have. Most people are not absolutely loaded, so for most people, if they have both options, state grammar does make more sense and is often the choice in the end. However, we know lots also go for the Independent. It actually is a bit different to state grammar school, and I think that's hard to grasp for some enthusiasts of the grammar system. People are sometimes choosing independent because they offer something a bit different and something that family values and is prepared to pay for....and because they can afford to do so, they choose to spend their money on that school, in order to get the things they value. It's not always the daft choice it might seem.
Re: Top state grammar vs top independent offer
Can you explain what you mean? What is this 'difference' .... the only difference I see are negative ones and why would you pay for something worse?Choco wrote:It actually is a bit different to state grammar school, and I think that's hard to grasp for some enthusiasts of the grammar system. People are sometimes choosing independent because they offer something a bit different and something that family values and is prepared to pay for....and because they can afford to do so, they choose to spend their money on that school, in order to get the things they value. It's not always the daft choice it might seem.
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kenyancowgirl
- Posts: 6738
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:59 pm
Re: Top state grammar vs top independent offer
I have absolutely no issue with people choosing an indie - if they have shedloads of money and don't even have to really consider if it is value for money, great for them. If they don't have shedloads of money but have made a concrete choice for whatever reason that the indie is for them (either with a bursary, or because they see some sort of perceived advantage of it)...again, great for them.
I DO have an issue with people who apply to both indie and state grammar and then sit on both options. There is NO excuse for this. I'm sorry, I don't buy the "people need time to really decide" argument. That decision should already have been made - which one do we really want IF we are made offers by both? Then, when the offers ARE made, go with the one you chose. Don't sit on two offers - or worse, offers from various indies and a GS, knowing full well that the only people being harmed are other people's children, just so your child and you can have linger to decide/boast about it to mates.
I DO have an issue with people who apply to both indie and state grammar and then sit on both options. There is NO excuse for this. I'm sorry, I don't buy the "people need time to really decide" argument. That decision should already have been made - which one do we really want IF we are made offers by both? Then, when the offers ARE made, go with the one you chose. Don't sit on two offers - or worse, offers from various indies and a GS, knowing full well that the only people being harmed are other people's children, just so your child and you can have linger to decide/boast about it to mates.
Re: Top state grammar vs top independent offer
This is a rather facile question imo. The "difference" will hold specific value to each individual family. You are not the arbiter of what represents good and bad value when it comes to education, so your "negatives" may well be positives for other parents.Guest55 wrote:Can you explain what you mean? What is this 'difference' .... the only difference I see are negative ones and why would you pay for something worse?Choco wrote:It actually is a bit different to state grammar school, and I think that's hard to grasp for some enthusiasts of the grammar system. People are sometimes choosing independent because they offer something a bit different and something that family values and is prepared to pay for....and because they can afford to do so, they choose to spend their money on that school, in order to get the things they value. It's not always the daft choice it might seem.
Not really an earth shattering concept to grasp imo .
Re: Top state grammar vs top independent offer
Well I have worked in both and had kids in both and I can see a difference. Whether it is a difference an individual would choose to pay for is a personal choice and also determined by how much of a sacrifice paying creates for a family.
Yes, there are lots of poor and mediocre independent schools. There are fabulous ones too, in the same way that there are fabulous state grammars and those not quite so impressive. I have friends working in some state grammars who report that standards are lower and results barely better than in some of the Comps they have taught in. There are good, bad and mediocre in all sectors - we have to recognise that.
The differences I have particularly noted in the independents compared to the state grammars I have known and worked in, often relate to the level of resourcing. In the Grammar, parents sometimes feel like like a nuisance with their queries and little attempt is made to custom make timetables and deliver every option a child may have - parents sometimes feel that they are supposed to be grateful for their place, accept it and shut up. In the independents, parents are replied to within a few hours and very real attempts are made to address their concerns and pretty big steps will be taken to do this, regarding timetabling etc. When a couple of children have expressed interest in a subject not currently offered, the school has looked into it and hired a teacher so it can be covered and included. There is no deciding not to offer a subject because numbers are too low to make it viable. Of course, whether these things seem to be relevant will vary according to parent....but some people are willing to pay for this stuff.
It might be the difference of a school offering teams A-J so that every person who wants to play can do so and get a good season in, of quality training with a dedicated coach and a series of matches every Saturday through the term. Again, whether this is worth it or not depends on the individual family, what they value and can afford.
It might be that large numbers will study something like History of Art, because being a medic isn't seen as the top choice, and that large numbers do things like classics at uni, rather than just a tiny handful. Some people might value a school which spends every afternoon on Games, and whilst not top of the top of the league tables, still gets results which are equal to or exceed the majority of state grammars.
I think that for most people who have a choice of offers for both, the state grammar is definitely the best choice. Most offer a fantastic education and lots of wider opportunities and it is all for nothing. It is wonderful. However, I just think that family circumstances and what schools offer are more nuanced, so it is just never possible to say that the choice of independent over state grammar is always daft, or never provides something different or better for an individual family. It's not purely the results or the range of extra curricular determining people's choices and making them good or bad choices, but lots of things as I mentioned before, such a journey times, attitude towards size of classes and resourcing, values of families and schools......there are loads of things. And yes, to choose on the basis of these things is a luxury which is available to those who can afford the big fees for the perhaps little extra things.....but they are clearly valued highly by the families which pay for them, and surely the point is that people do place different values on different aspects of education.
Yes, there are lots of poor and mediocre independent schools. There are fabulous ones too, in the same way that there are fabulous state grammars and those not quite so impressive. I have friends working in some state grammars who report that standards are lower and results barely better than in some of the Comps they have taught in. There are good, bad and mediocre in all sectors - we have to recognise that.
The differences I have particularly noted in the independents compared to the state grammars I have known and worked in, often relate to the level of resourcing. In the Grammar, parents sometimes feel like like a nuisance with their queries and little attempt is made to custom make timetables and deliver every option a child may have - parents sometimes feel that they are supposed to be grateful for their place, accept it and shut up. In the independents, parents are replied to within a few hours and very real attempts are made to address their concerns and pretty big steps will be taken to do this, regarding timetabling etc. When a couple of children have expressed interest in a subject not currently offered, the school has looked into it and hired a teacher so it can be covered and included. There is no deciding not to offer a subject because numbers are too low to make it viable. Of course, whether these things seem to be relevant will vary according to parent....but some people are willing to pay for this stuff.
It might be the difference of a school offering teams A-J so that every person who wants to play can do so and get a good season in, of quality training with a dedicated coach and a series of matches every Saturday through the term. Again, whether this is worth it or not depends on the individual family, what they value and can afford.
It might be that large numbers will study something like History of Art, because being a medic isn't seen as the top choice, and that large numbers do things like classics at uni, rather than just a tiny handful. Some people might value a school which spends every afternoon on Games, and whilst not top of the top of the league tables, still gets results which are equal to or exceed the majority of state grammars.
I think that for most people who have a choice of offers for both, the state grammar is definitely the best choice. Most offer a fantastic education and lots of wider opportunities and it is all for nothing. It is wonderful. However, I just think that family circumstances and what schools offer are more nuanced, so it is just never possible to say that the choice of independent over state grammar is always daft, or never provides something different or better for an individual family. It's not purely the results or the range of extra curricular determining people's choices and making them good or bad choices, but lots of things as I mentioned before, such a journey times, attitude towards size of classes and resourcing, values of families and schools......there are loads of things. And yes, to choose on the basis of these things is a luxury which is available to those who can afford the big fees for the perhaps little extra things.....but they are clearly valued highly by the families which pay for them, and surely the point is that people do place different values on different aspects of education.
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shootmenow
- Posts: 356
- Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:25 pm
Re: Top state grammar vs top independent offer
As for admissions criteria - hang around on here for a while and you will find plenty of nuggets like, 'school won't actually tell me DC's position on the waiting list' (waiting lists are very strictly regulated in state schools under the Admissions Code), or the advice that the way to get your DC to the top of the waiting list is to ring up and assure them that that particular establishment is your DC's only desire and as soon as an offer comes your way, you will be round there with deposit cheque in hand. If the latter genuinely works, then you can understand a school's reluctance to accede to the aforementioned request 
.[/quote]
I think you are missing the purpose of that advice. DCs may be holding multiple offers while sitting on a waiting list for their first choice. The schools have wait lists with DCs who may have accepted another offer in preference but not informed the wait listing schools that they should be removed from the wait list. This creates unnecessary stress for all concerned not to mention expense for parents who pay non-refundable deposits on their 2nd choice only to get an offer from their 1st choice after the deadline because some other parents were taking their time chasing or chose and didn't inform the other schools. Phoning the admissions secretary to let them know your preference is a curtesy.
As for you Guest55, nobody will ever convince you that indie parents are social climbing and shallow and that their DCs are mentally and morally inferior to state school DCs. I'm curious as to why you post on the Indie threads? It's just well written trolling.
Here's why we chose an indie (for OP), DD2 is dyslexic but very clever. The local grammar's exam was (at the time) brilliantly designed to filter out dyslexics reliant as it was on speed and NVR. Here's why I'm glad it wasn't an option, it is becoming monocultural where her indie is very diverse (culturally and to some extent economically through a generous bursary scheme) and they have a working heating system.
.[/quote]I think you are missing the purpose of that advice. DCs may be holding multiple offers while sitting on a waiting list for their first choice. The schools have wait lists with DCs who may have accepted another offer in preference but not informed the wait listing schools that they should be removed from the wait list. This creates unnecessary stress for all concerned not to mention expense for parents who pay non-refundable deposits on their 2nd choice only to get an offer from their 1st choice after the deadline because some other parents were taking their time chasing or chose and didn't inform the other schools. Phoning the admissions secretary to let them know your preference is a curtesy.
As for you Guest55, nobody will ever convince you that indie parents are social climbing and shallow and that their DCs are mentally and morally inferior to state school DCs. I'm curious as to why you post on the Indie threads? It's just well written trolling.
Here's why we chose an indie (for OP), DD2 is dyslexic but very clever. The local grammar's exam was (at the time) brilliantly designed to filter out dyslexics reliant as it was on speed and NVR. Here's why I'm glad it wasn't an option, it is becoming monocultural where her indie is very diverse (culturally and to some extent economically through a generous bursary scheme) and they have a working heating system.
Re: Top state grammar vs top independent offer
What a rude post! You do not know me or my experience so please do not presume to do so. I do not want my child to be taught by an unqualified teacher and have to pay fees for that. How is that ever a postive?firefox wrote:This is a rather facile question imo. The "difference" will hold specific value to each individual family. You are not the arbiter of what represents good and bad value when it comes to education, so your "negatives" may well be positives for other parents.
Not really an earth shattering concept to grasp imo .
Re: Top state grammar vs top independent offer
Hear hear. I find it to be one of the most anti-social and horrible things parents can do. I am rath radical as to what the solution to this should be though (and most people will disagree with me!). I think the number of schools (comp, grammar and indie) should not be allowed to total more than 3. I'd like to see a centralised system that would mean that all choices have to be made by say March 5th. I would then have a "clearing system to match those without offers with schools that they could apply to. Lastly, any parent who doesn't choose by the March 5th deadline would have any offers immediately withdrawn and their DC's would then automatically go into the clearing round.kenyancowgirl wrote:I have absolutely no issue with people choosing an indie - if they have shedloads of money and don't even have to really consider if it is value for money, great for them. If they don't have shedloads of money but have made a concrete choice for whatever reason that the indie is for them (either with a bursary, or because they see some sort of perceived advantage of it)...again, great for them.
I DO have an issue with people who apply to both indie and state grammar and then sit on both options. There is NO excuse for this. I'm sorry, I don't buy the "people need time to really decide" argument. That decision should already have been made - which one do we really want IF we are made offers by both? Then, when the offers ARE made, go with the one you chose. Don't sit on two offers - or worse, offers from various indies and a GS, knowing full well that the only people being harmed are other people's children, just so your child and you can have linger to decide/boast about it to mates.
Not many people agree with me, but I think doing this would help calm some of the 11+ madness (with some parents having their kids sit 9/10 schools) and would also allow schools to manage their offer process better.
OK... I'm off my soapbox now!!
Re: Top state grammar vs top independent offer
And I agree that no-one should sit on a variety of offers which is preventing other children getting offers and creating stress. I think the majority would agree that this is bad practice, although seemingly fairly common. And yes, it is those applying to independents and grammars who often hold up the system. It is really unhelpful and of course makes those who need a state grammar place annoyed with independent parents who are holding onto offers they might not actually use....and it colours people's views of both those parents and perhaps the independent schools themselves.
Re: Top state grammar vs top independent offer
I apologise if the post comes off as rude. Let me try a different way...There will be plenty of parents who look at what the school does for their children. If these "unqualified teachers" give great care and are actually brilliant for children, why would a parent are that they are not "qualified". Indeed, I've witnessed horrendous teaching standards in state, grammar and Indie schools.Guest55 wrote:What a rude post! You do not know me or my experience so please do not presume to do so. I do not want my child to be taught by an unqualified teacher and have to pay fees for that. How is that ever a postive?firefox wrote:This is a rather facile question imo. The "difference" will hold specific value to each individual family. You are not the arbiter of what represents good and bad value when it comes to education, so your "negatives" may well be positives for other parents.
Not really an earth shattering concept to grasp imo .
