Top or Bottom?
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Being in a small pond restricts your growth so you never have the chance to get bigger. But if you are a small fish in a big pond at least you can grow to fit it.
Does this apply to schools and minds?? Who knows, but I'd like my son to have the chance to grow rather than be restricted and ultimately bored. He is suffering that at the moment in primary.
Does this apply to schools and minds?? Who knows, but I'd like my son to have the chance to grow rather than be restricted and ultimately bored. He is suffering that at the moment in primary.
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T.i.p.s.y
The boys currently board 200 miles apart at present, and often with boarding schools they have parents evenings or concerts on the last days of terms/half-terms as you'll be coming down to pick them up anyway. Both boys schools always seem to finish on the same day at the same time, so I have missed out on concerts and parents evenings because one of us is at the other school. There is also the problem with matches - who do you go and see, I don't know how much they would bond at boarding school but it must be beter than it is now! 
I think the ideal school would to be placed average in a very academic setting. The school that would be good for the eldest will mean he is inbetween average - top (it is unlikely I will find a school where he is average), but my youngest will be bottom in that school. The annoying thing is that during the first couple of years chorister training (starts Sept) a boys academic ability plateaus because he has so much extra work and is tired. After about two years they USUALLY pick up again and advance. So when I have to make a decision about schools factoring my younger sons ability in, it may not be a true reflection of his potential.
I think the ideal school would to be placed average in a very academic setting. The school that would be good for the eldest will mean he is inbetween average - top (it is unlikely I will find a school where he is average), but my youngest will be bottom in that school. The annoying thing is that during the first couple of years chorister training (starts Sept) a boys academic ability plateaus because he has so much extra work and is tired. After about two years they USUALLY pick up again and advance. So when I have to make a decision about schools factoring my younger sons ability in, it may not be a true reflection of his potential.
From the frustrations of different schools that you are already describing, I would go for the same school for both your sons. You will, no doubt, always be choosing between good schools. Musical opportunities should be there whichever you choose. Bringing the best out academically in your "less academic" son should hopefully happen at any of the schools that select him via an ability test.
This may mean now that you have to take the "weight" off both of them of being involved in the decision.
I am not sure that the big fish / small fish analogy is as important as it may seem when it comes to schools. Children are big fish in some situations and small fish in others. There may be situations where even your extremely able son feels like a small fish e.g. in music lessons. And there will be situations where your less academic son feels like a big fish in those areas which he excels at.
Good luck.
P.S. I just looked at Winchester A level and GCSE results on their website. Would your second son really feel so much at the bottom of the pile? It's much easier to get As and Bs at GCSE and A level than it was. I see someone quite close to me (at a non-selective independent school) getting extremely high grades through sheer hard work and persistence who probably would not have got them 25 years ago no matter how well "crammed" or "spoon-fed".
This may mean now that you have to take the "weight" off both of them of being involved in the decision.
I am not sure that the big fish / small fish analogy is as important as it may seem when it comes to schools. Children are big fish in some situations and small fish in others. There may be situations where even your extremely able son feels like a small fish e.g. in music lessons. And there will be situations where your less academic son feels like a big fish in those areas which he excels at.
Good luck.
P.S. I just looked at Winchester A level and GCSE results on their website. Would your second son really feel so much at the bottom of the pile? It's much easier to get As and Bs at GCSE and A level than it was. I see someone quite close to me (at a non-selective independent school) getting extremely high grades through sheer hard work and persistence who probably would not have got them 25 years ago no matter how well "crammed" or "spoon-fed".
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T.i.p.s.y
Perplexed - you have really helped me! 
I hadn't even thought of the fact that my kids are big and small fishes at school at different times. My poor eldest when it comes to sport! Sometimes one is far to close to the situation to see that there isn't a problem. 
Where did you read Winchesters results? They come very low on league tables for GCSE's because only the less able candidates sit them and the more able (vast majority) do not, meaning they get a fail grade! The best place is on their website where each boy averages 5.08 A'levels each
with 80% of them being A's!!! Eton averages 3.6 A'levels with a high proportion of A's too. Does more A'levels make the school academically better?
I hadn't even thought of the fact that my kids are big and small fishes at school at different times. My poor eldest when it comes to sport! Sometimes one is far to close to the situation to see that there isn't a problem. Where did you read Winchesters results? They come very low on league tables for GCSE's because only the less able candidates sit them and the more able (vast majority) do not, meaning they get a fail grade! The best place is on their website where each boy averages 5.08 A'levels each
with 80% of them being A's!!! Eton averages 3.6 A'levels with a high proportion of A's too. Does more A'levels make the school academically better? -
T.i.p.s.y
One was me...okay, here is the vote from the Leicestershire jury...
I was always, with my twin, the brightest in the class at first and middle school. Never had to work for it, or even do any homework.
I learned to read without my mother even realising I should have been bringing home a metal tobacco tin (!!) with words in it!! Not bragging, just background info.
We both passed what was then the 12+ and duly went to the girls school in Rugby. Shock, horror we were not top of the class!! Not by a long way. We were distinctly average in that environment! Furthermore, we had been in the situation where we had never learned to try hard, study or even do research or apply our minds to homework.
Our self esteems hit rock bottom and we never really recovered from it at that school. It didn't help that they all seemed to come from affluent families and we were former council house residents. Who knows exactly what would have happened had we gone to a different school...but I do know that my other friends who went to the comprehensive school, but had been equally intelligent, flourished in an environment where they were still the 'clever' ones.
Being surrounded by 'cleverer' girls clipped our wings rather than encouraging us to soar...
This was our experience. Others may disagree. Apologies for using plural rather than singular - a terrible affliction from having always been a twin!!
I was always, with my twin, the brightest in the class at first and middle school. Never had to work for it, or even do any homework.
I learned to read without my mother even realising I should have been bringing home a metal tobacco tin (!!) with words in it!! Not bragging, just background info.
We both passed what was then the 12+ and duly went to the girls school in Rugby. Shock, horror we were not top of the class!! Not by a long way. We were distinctly average in that environment! Furthermore, we had been in the situation where we had never learned to try hard, study or even do research or apply our minds to homework.
Our self esteems hit rock bottom and we never really recovered from it at that school. It didn't help that they all seemed to come from affluent families and we were former council house residents. Who knows exactly what would have happened had we gone to a different school...but I do know that my other friends who went to the comprehensive school, but had been equally intelligent, flourished in an environment where they were still the 'clever' ones.
Being surrounded by 'cleverer' girls clipped our wings rather than encouraging us to soar...
This was our experience. Others may disagree. Apologies for using plural rather than singular - a terrible affliction from having always been a twin!!
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T.i.p.s.y
Hi Ed's mum, are you and DS looking forward to the start of his new school?
The exact same thing happened to me but as I went to an awful comp it was when I got to uni that it all fell apart for me and I dropped out within a term. I feel that if I had experienced failure, difficulty or not being one of the best academically at secondary school, then I would have achieved at university, where there was much more to lose. I wonder if our kids go through life thinking they are the best, will it make them complacent as adults, and will it be a huge shock when someone is promoted over them? May be it just comes down to a childs personality, but even then its impossible to tell if a child will rise or fall (apologie for the melodrama ) in these situations?
I know not everyone who posts here may be choosing selective education, but I assume most are, which is why I was surprised when more thought it better to be a big fish in a small pond, as surely this will not be the case at grammar school?
The exact same thing happened to me but as I went to an awful comp it was when I got to uni that it all fell apart for me and I dropped out within a term. I feel that if I had experienced failure, difficulty or not being one of the best academically at secondary school, then I would have achieved at university, where there was much more to lose. I wonder if our kids go through life thinking they are the best, will it make them complacent as adults, and will it be a huge shock when someone is promoted over them? May be it just comes down to a childs personality, but even then its impossible to tell if a child will rise or fall (apologie for the melodrama
) in these situations?I know not everyone who posts here may be choosing selective education, but I assume most are, which is why I was surprised when more thought it better to be a big fish in a small pond, as surely this will not be the case at grammar school?
Tipsy - both your options are good schools and so I don't think you are really comparing extremes. I voted 'big fish' because I think it must be hard to be the bottom at everything, no matter what school you go to. As your sons appear to have differing strengths you can choose different schools for them - with all the hassle that involves - or one in which they can both excel - a more rounded school where all talents are appreciated. I, like you, hit the 'I'm not the cleverest' moment when I left my comp for unversity but I'm not sure when it would have been worse to realise this - and the difference between my school and the schools you are considering is galactical. How about rock, paper, scissors - whatever you choose you can always blame the school if it doesn't work out.......?
mad?
I also voted 'big fish' although my daughter is at GS and doing really well.
I think children thrive as big/valued fish in their pond, be it large or small. It's up to us to choose the right 'pond' to allow them to be big fish.
My daughter tells me that there are children struggling at the bottom of GS who are really finding it miserable to be unable to achieve the same grades as the other girls, even though they all passed the 11+. These girls are obviously 'bright', but suffer by comparison to others who are 'super-bright'.
In terms of life-long self confidence, I think if I were the parent of one of those girls, I would wish I had put her somewhere she is in the 'top half' of abilities and could be proud of what she could do, rather than worried and stressed about keeping up. It really depends on the personality of the child - would being bottom make them determined to succeed or would it crush their spirit?
For some, it does seem to be the latter - although they are all still in their first year and maybe things will even out.
Do you have a good option where both boys will in the 'top half'?
I think children thrive as big/valued fish in their pond, be it large or small. It's up to us to choose the right 'pond' to allow them to be big fish.
My daughter tells me that there are children struggling at the bottom of GS who are really finding it miserable to be unable to achieve the same grades as the other girls, even though they all passed the 11+. These girls are obviously 'bright', but suffer by comparison to others who are 'super-bright'.
In terms of life-long self confidence, I think if I were the parent of one of those girls, I would wish I had put her somewhere she is in the 'top half' of abilities and could be proud of what she could do, rather than worried and stressed about keeping up. It really depends on the personality of the child - would being bottom make them determined to succeed or would it crush their spirit?
For some, it does seem to be the latter - although they are all still in their first year and maybe things will even out.
Do you have a good option where both boys will in the 'top half'?
