Grammar allowed to discriminate against private schools
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shana Lewis
wrong quote taken - shant try being technical again!This is the one I should have copied...
'What about the parents in the Poole state schools who pay for private tutoring - aren't they "buying" a grammar school place as well? Seems like they have an unfair advantage as well. And what about those that find their way to this forum and can afford to buy the materials when others can't? '
'What about the parents in the Poole state schools who pay for private tutoring - aren't they "buying" a grammar school place as well? Seems like they have an unfair advantage as well. And what about those that find their way to this forum and can afford to buy the materials when others can't? '
Fairness?
Nothing in life is fair!
Those of you who are lucky enough to live in a catchment area to automatically gain entry if you pass the 11+ are lucky.
The unlucky ones are those who don't have access to 11+ and have to hope and pray they can get in once places have been allocated (we all have a sob story!!!).
Is it fair that those with the most money can afford to buy the houses closest to the best schools, thereby leaving the poorest often with the worst schooling?
Is it fair that people who can afford it, send their kids to private schooling at all (be it primary or secondary schooling)?
The ONLY people I feel sorry for in this lot is the people who live in poor areas, who don't have the economic abilitiy to pay for private schooling, who don't have access to a good school and don't live in an 11+ catchment area (whether they tutor or not).
Everyone else can just get on with it and stop giving sob stories about who's got what and how unfair it all is.
Life is not fair and it never will be - tell it to all the people who are dying in hte world or houses are burning down in Australia. Tell it to all the people who have lost their jobs and can't afford clothes for their backs or food to eat half the time.
Please - let's keep a sense of proportion about all this.
No-one has rights to anything and we do all make the best of it we can.
Let's be thankful our children are bright enough for us to consider a good education, however we come by it, for them.
Nothing in life is fair!
Those of you who are lucky enough to live in a catchment area to automatically gain entry if you pass the 11+ are lucky.
The unlucky ones are those who don't have access to 11+ and have to hope and pray they can get in once places have been allocated (we all have a sob story!!!).
Is it fair that those with the most money can afford to buy the houses closest to the best schools, thereby leaving the poorest often with the worst schooling?
Is it fair that people who can afford it, send their kids to private schooling at all (be it primary or secondary schooling)?
The ONLY people I feel sorry for in this lot is the people who live in poor areas, who don't have the economic abilitiy to pay for private schooling, who don't have access to a good school and don't live in an 11+ catchment area (whether they tutor or not).
Everyone else can just get on with it and stop giving sob stories about who's got what and how unfair it all is.
Life is not fair and it never will be - tell it to all the people who are dying in hte world or houses are burning down in Australia. Tell it to all the people who have lost their jobs and can't afford clothes for their backs or food to eat half the time.
Please - let's keep a sense of proportion about all this.
No-one has rights to anything and we do all make the best of it we can.
Let's be thankful our children are bright enough for us to consider a good education, however we come by it, for them.
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shana Lewis
'The ONLY people I feel sorry for in this lot is the people who live in poor areas, who don't have the economic abilitiy to pay for private schooling, who don't have access to a good school and don't live in an 11+ catchment area (whether they tutor or not). '
I think these are the people we are mainly discussing.
I think these are the people we are mainly discussing.
grammar allowed to discriminate against private schools
I do not really know what people perceive to be the advantage of a private prep school. We sent each of ours to such a school for years 4, 5 and half of year 6 and I obviously know why we did this even though it was painful financially.
They did do some preparation for the 11+ but we were the only people who did not pay for any tutoring. What they mostly did was to provide a good traditional education - you know the kind of thing- proper desks, a blackboard, strict teacher armed with a red biro, spelling tests, exams, speech day with prizes that were not just for washing the paintbrushes, games where someone actually won and an environment where intelligence was not a fascist, elitist outmoded concept!!
The importance of the school to us was that our children were not bored stiff all the time and I could actually find some other parents in the playground I had something in common with and who were actually enthusiastic about grammar schools ( do not all throw stones at once - I know there are lots of great parents at state schools- and there were a lot at the prep school looking like extras from Footballers Wives with loathsome evilly behaved children!!)
What I do notice at DS's state school is that although it has exactly the same size class as the private one (and far more hours fron the teaching assistant) is that no one listens to him read from one term to the next (private school did every day even in year 6), no one corrects his work properly even when it is full of mistakes in case they should damage his self esteem (!) and no one sees it as important to get any child ahead of another because that would obviously be elitist(!)
I suppose what I am trying to say is that you do not really buy an educational advantage so much as a different set of attitudes which I personally find much more acceptable but others might not.
They did do some preparation for the 11+ but we were the only people who did not pay for any tutoring. What they mostly did was to provide a good traditional education - you know the kind of thing- proper desks, a blackboard, strict teacher armed with a red biro, spelling tests, exams, speech day with prizes that were not just for washing the paintbrushes, games where someone actually won and an environment where intelligence was not a fascist, elitist outmoded concept!!
The importance of the school to us was that our children were not bored stiff all the time and I could actually find some other parents in the playground I had something in common with and who were actually enthusiastic about grammar schools ( do not all throw stones at once - I know there are lots of great parents at state schools- and there were a lot at the prep school looking like extras from Footballers Wives with loathsome evilly behaved children!!)
What I do notice at DS's state school is that although it has exactly the same size class as the private one (and far more hours fron the teaching assistant) is that no one listens to him read from one term to the next (private school did every day even in year 6), no one corrects his work properly even when it is full of mistakes in case they should damage his self esteem (!) and no one sees it as important to get any child ahead of another because that would obviously be elitist(!)
I suppose what I am trying to say is that you do not really buy an educational advantage so much as a different set of attitudes which I personally find much more acceptable but others might not.
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shana Lewis
Like most good threads , I think this was has gone on a tangent. The original post was about the rights and wrongs of having independant schools as feeders for state grammars.What I and a few others ahve tried to do is outline why they should not - poinitng out that actually prep schools DO have far smaller class sizes etc(fact) and so are already at a huge advantage. The principle behind state grammars is to reach poorer pupils who have great potential but would not otherwise would be held back in a mixed ability enviroment.
As has been pointed out, the system can never garuntee total fairness as some poorer parents through lack of knowledge/interest will fail to recognise their own childs potentail and wont bother to encourage them. However, a huge number WILL.They, like me, recognise they are up against not only indie schools in the city but also far out of county(when actually the grammar is literally around the corner from me), and so will have to play the game somewhat, in getting hold of coaching materials to have ANY chance of competing. Remember, state primaries don't even teach most of the 11+ maths questions until after the test itself!
I accept the state of affairs as I ultimately have faith in my son's natural ability. However, i find it galling to hear the whining of the elitist brigade when , for once, a decision goes against them. Overall, they've got it pretty damn good.
Yes Snowdrops, I know things are much worse in Africa etc , but at the moment this is what is most relevant to me.
As has been pointed out, the system can never garuntee total fairness as some poorer parents through lack of knowledge/interest will fail to recognise their own childs potentail and wont bother to encourage them. However, a huge number WILL.They, like me, recognise they are up against not only indie schools in the city but also far out of county(when actually the grammar is literally around the corner from me), and so will have to play the game somewhat, in getting hold of coaching materials to have ANY chance of competing. Remember, state primaries don't even teach most of the 11+ maths questions until after the test itself!
I accept the state of affairs as I ultimately have faith in my son's natural ability. However, i find it galling to hear the whining of the elitist brigade when , for once, a decision goes against them. Overall, they've got it pretty damn good.
Yes Snowdrops, I know things are much worse in Africa etc , but at the moment this is what is most relevant to me.
To the person who said that those parents who pay for private tutoring are also giving their child a bought and unfair advantage, the typical total cost for a tutor for a lesson a week over an academic year, is around £880, and this is paid in weekly instalments of around £20 - £25.
By no stretch of the imagination can you possibly compare this to the cost of a private prep school from age 5 - 11 - about £35,000.
By no stretch of the imagination can you possibly compare this to the cost of a private prep school from age 5 - 11 - about £35,000.