Can a bright child progress to the top set without help?

[tiredmum]

My own DD obtained 3s in reading and writing at end of year 2, with a 2a in maths (August born baby). The school formally set only for maths, for years 3 and 4, but she was in the "age appropriate" group (ie the lower one) in Y3.

At the end of Y3, she had made little progress (3C) and at this stage, I became worried and invested in a once fortnightly tutor (as she would not respond well to help from me) for that year. By the end of year 4, she had progressed to a 4B and was placed in the higher group (i.e. went into the year 6 maths group, with the top third of her class).

She is now on track to get either a 5A or 5B in maths (which is what she is at the moment) by end of year 6, and is routinely doing year 8 work.
...

hello tiredmumof2
i could have been reading about my dd!
She got practically the same as yours at key stage 1 with a 2a for maths - although i didnt find out until she had started year 5 that she was only a level 3c in maths - hardly any progress in yr 3 and 4! also age split classes i felt were to blame

I could not afford a tutor at the time but the year 5 teacher helped me set her extra work at home and in just 3 months she had jumped from 3c to 4c! She ended year 5 with a level 5 and is now at grammar in year 7 - maths will never be her best subject but she is meeting targets so we both happy!

[tiredmumof2]

and we are both tired too!

DD has just taken GS exams and we are waiting for results (not through til March, can you believe it). As there is only 1 GS in our area (covering around 3 counties!), it is super selective (so catchment is not relevant), and there were hundreds of children going for the 120 places, I'm not too hopeful.

Maths is still DD's worst subject and she can have good and bad days depending on her mood. Wasn't too happy when she came out of the test a couple of weeks ago, unfortunately.

Writing on the other hand is what DD's really good at - she already is a top 5a and I suspect would be a 6 something if she was given the chance to do an extended paper. Not good enough though for the local GS - she will need to pass each part of the exam, including the maths (a "pass" is set as the 120th ranked mark). It is not enough to do very well in one and combine the scores.

[mystery]

And do you ever think that being in the "wrong set" could have contributed to both the tired children having the results they had by year 4/5 and needing to catch up in some way - either with tutor, or by sensible homework set by class teacher to plug the gaps.

The way the maths setting works in my daughter's school is that on some days the middle set is given the worksheet for the higher group if they finish the middle group's worksheet early enough.

Now this is fine in theory, but let's say you're in the middle set because you mostly understand the concepts but have a slow work rate. You don't complete the middle set worksheet maybe 'cos you're slow writing it all down (specially those ******* blank number lines that some teachers like you to spend ages filling in), or if you do, only just before time, so you never get on to the higher group's worksheet.

The middle group is taught to lower NC targets than the higher group, so you never cover enough of the material to achieve the higher NC levels, unless, like the tired mothers, you spot what is going on and plug the gaps outside school somehow.

If you don't, you continue to be scuppered. You go off to secondary schools with average kind of NC levels, go into middle sets aiming at lower targets, your maths textbook is written to suit the set that you are in, and on and on it goes. Two wasted years at primary school in the wrong set, and suddenly you're a maths duffer for the rest of your life.

Worse still, you go to a secondary school where you have to be good at maths to get into the best English set because of the way the timetable works. You're great at English, but not so good at maths, so end up in a lower set than you deserve for English. So out you come at 16 or 18, not as good as you could have been in maths or english.

[tiredmum]

Oh mystery you have raised a lot of stuff here!

And do you ever think that being in the "wrong set" could have contributed to both the tired children having the results they had by year 4/5 and needing to catch up in some way.

Well yes i do but probably not in the way you think. In year 3 my dd was put into a year 4 class - there was only her and one other girl from year 3. As she had got a 2a at the end of key stage1 she was put into set2(out of 5) for maths. The thing was that key stage 2 maths is different from key stage 1 maths - put that together with a teacher leaving, a teacher returning from maternity and you get my dd2 not really understanding work that was too hard for her, for too long, no one realising- losing confidence and BANG no progress for 2 years!

The way the maths setting works in my daughter's school is that on some days the middle set is given the worksheet for the higher group if they finish the middle group's worksheet early enough.
Now this is fine in theory, but let's say you're in the middle set because you mostly understand the concepts but have a slow work rate. You don't complete the middle set worksheet maybe 'cos you're slow writing it all down .

This was the same at my dd's school - however in normal circumstance i do think that they would recognise if this was the situation. My dd1 hardly ever completed any work of any sort at primary but was in the top sets. When they did tests she performed well. I would carry on filling in holes if you think she has some.

If you don't, you continue to be scuppered. You go off to secondary schools with average kind of NC levels, go into middle sets aiming at lower targets, your maths textbook is written to suit the set that you are in, and on and on it goes. Two wasted years at primary school in the wrong set, and suddenly you're a maths duffer for the rest of your life..

No i beleive you can stop this from happening - my dd2 could have failed 11 plus because of maths but i was going to do everything i could to not let this happen. I was lucky in that her year 5 teacher realised she was not on target in maths. But it was my dd2 and me that did most of the work

[mystery]

Yes you did do most of the work yourself, which is great. But what was also great was that you had a class teacher on your side and willing to impart some useful information to you which assisted in the catching up process.

This isn't the case at some schools; they might not give you sufficient info to realise that your daughter was that far behind and, if they did, they might be so obstructive and defensive about it that there would be no working together.

It's a much harder situation playing catch-up at home if the school will never reflect the progress that you have made with your child at home and continues to dish out the easier stuff as though nothing has changed, and continues to have the lowest expectations possible of your child.

It is also very difficult for a parent to achieve what you have done if every time you try to find out what is being covered at school so you can do something at home which fits with what is going on at school you are batted off into oblivion as though you are the devil incarnate or have some mental health problem. Believe me, this is how some schools deal with it.

So you might have had a to do a load of work at home yourself, which arguably in an ideal world you would not have done, but in Year 5 it sounds as though you had a true school - parent partnership, not just lip service to this. This makes a huge difference.

[sherry_d]

It's a much harder situation playing catch-up at home if the school will never reflect the progress that you have made with your child at home and continues to dish out the easier stuff as though nothing has changed, and continues to have the lowest expectations possible of your child.

Very much our experience and I was always told she was doing fine but I got a big shock horror when I started working with her. I didnt understand about all these levels until I came on this forum, I was told she was meeting her targets which is what seemed to matter to them. I didnt even know what table my DD was on until year 5. I better stop my rant here otherwise I could write a book, no wonder our school got a 16% pass rate for the 11+.

I did once try and find out exactly where she was in class and the teacher looked at me like I had dropped from mars before telling me in a scarcastic tone that they dont give such info. All I was trying to get was real honest feedback not the SATS nonsense that seem to pollute every "parents consultation". Nothing wrong with SATS per ser but filling every consultation with that stuff isnt helpful IMHO.

...and if anyone ever preaches to me that a child will do well wherever they will go, I will just strangle them .

[tiredmum]

So you might have had a to do a load of work at home yourself, which arguably in an ideal world you would not have done, but in Year 5 it sounds as though you had a true school - parent partnership, not just lip service to this. This makes a huge difference.

yes i agree and was lucky to have this. Infact i knew by the middle of year 4 she was behind in maths but i knew the teacher she had that year was not one who would have helped in the way the year 5 teacher did. I also know i was lucky that even though my dd2's maths is weaker than her english she performed on the day of the 11 plus. That was 2 lucky events for us i am not going to say we deserved it as so many people here dont get the result they want, but we have had a rocky path in other ways so a bit of luck coming our way was more than welcome

[mystery]

Sorry to rant about this. I think teaching is a jolly difficult job, and it's really hard to deliver a lesson that engages all, and is differentiated correctly for every child in the class at every point in time.

But if you have a parent who is willing to help, which will in the end boost the child's results and therefore appear to improve the teacher's performance, I cannot for the life of me understand why there are so many teachers out there (I'm not saying it's the majority, but there seem to be a lot of them particularly at primary level) who consider parents who want their children to do better than they are doing at best a pain in the neck, and at worst downright sinful.

[yoyo123]

I agree Mystery.

it's really hard to deliver a lesson that engages all, and is differentiated correctly for every child in the class at every point in time.

I am not sure that people always appreciate the wide range of abilities in one class (especially in lower primary) In year 5, I had one child who was still trying to count to 10 and 2 who were venturing into KS3 level in certain aspects of maths..

That's why I think this 1:1 tuition is so good as it is a way to fill in the gaps which are stopping the child understanding something eg if you haven't understood place value then decimals, percentages, addition etc are all affected, but the teacher does not always have the luxury of being able to help the child over that hurdle in a class situation ( especially if they are busy controlling disruptive children)

[wonderwoman]

I think teaching is a jolly difficult job.

You're right, it is, thank you.

But if you have a parent who is willing to help, which will in the end boost the child's results and therefore appear to improve the teacher's performance, I cannot for the life of me understand why there are so many teachers out there (I'm not saying it's the majority, but there seem to be a lot of them particularly at primary level) who consider parents who want their children to do better than they are doing at best a pain in the neck, and at worst downright sinful.

I don't think many primary teachers feel that way about parents. Teachers are always pleased when parents help and support their children and school so that children can achieve their potential.

I am into my 3rd decade of teaching and in all that time the parents I find most difficult (and it always makes me sad) are parents who often have delightful children who work very hard and to the very best of their ability, but their parents believe them to be lazy, because they don't achieve the high levels they want them to achieve. The children I am thinking of, often attend tutors and their parents are very supportive of homework, often notes are added to say they have made children redo work, because the first attempt was not good enough, could they have extra etc. I don't think I have ever been successful in convincing these parents that their children are achieving their maximum and should be praised.