Independent or state primary - I need to make a decision!

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Inaquandry
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 8:45 pm

Re: Independent or state primary - I need to make a decision

Post by Inaquandry »

Ok I suppose the shortcomings of the village school are this - no team sports (and yup, the whole weekend is spend doing tennis/rugby/hockey! Eldest is sporty and partic loves rugby!); year group of only 12 so bit limited socially; most children actually seem to drive from a range of areas into the school rather than there being a critical mass of kids in the village (we are one of the few who walk); no after school club - no matter currently as we have a nanny, but come next September when our youngest starts we will need to rethink childcare - and there aren't any childminders that pick up from the school, so I'm a bit worried - there are a lot of stay at home mums or people who work pt very locally - I work 4 days and commute about an hr so it's a tough one. Academically... Ah I don't know! As I said I just expected eldest to fly, he seems bright but is on the bottom table for phonics, but his teacher doesn't seem worried. I'd say about half the children in the village don't use the village sch but other state or Indy options - not this particular one but its the right direction for our work.

I know it sounds maybe an easy one. Maybe we could leave it a couple of yrs, but my worry is availability of places in both year groups, starting my youngest somewhere he doesn't have to move, possibly falling further behind academically and not even getting in to indy at later date! Whatever way whichever decision I make (and I swap constantly!) I don't feel particularly happy either way!
mystery
Posts: 8927
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:56 pm

Re: Independent or state primary - I need to make a decision

Post by mystery »

If you were describing a high achieving village school I would say stay. If you are working full-time with big commute you need a school you can rely on to teach your child well as yoy do not have time to make up the shortfall at home.

Does your village school get all children reading well or does it have a bottom group of readers that grovel around until the end of year 6? What do the results show?

Is your son progressing with reading would you say? Has the school shared the phonics scheme with you and told you how to help at home so that he continues to work words out for himself and not guess from first letter and pictures? And so that you help him learn the grapheme - phoneme correspondences ?

Do you think the independent would make a better job of teaching him to read if that is your concern?

I don't see that the village school you describe has great attractions other than being free. I have stuck with a village school that sounds a bit like yours. I pretty mch taught my own children to read myself though but I have the time to do so. Also when other aspects flag I do something to plug the gap at home.

The better state schools round here are full as are the desirable independents.
Amber
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:59 am

Re: Independent or state primary - I need to make a decision

Post by Amber »

I'm sure you know what I'm going to say, so I will keep it brief and relevant. I agree 100% with neveragain*.

I moved 2 of my children from an independent school (we had been travelling, came back and they were allocated 3 separate primary schools in different parts of town, so we ended up at an indie) to a local school. We had to do it in stages as places became available. This school had been given notice to improve and the results were pretty poor to be honest, but for us the local nature of it- ability to walk there and have local friends -and the social mix, as well as the extra free time, were more important.

Fast forward several years and both the children I moved are at grammar school; and I know everyone says this but one had no tutoring at all (ok he started grammar a year late) and the other had one hour a week most weeks from Easter of Y5. The school did not push, stretch, whatever you want to call it- they had some brilliant teachers and some less brilliant ones, some great lessons and some dire ones. But far better on balance than the highly regarded indie we had sent them too and were very glad to get them out of. They had a very happy time at primary school, it was logistically very easy, and it was free! Not one single regret here.

Children do mature at different rates too - one of mine daydreamed through primary school (having missed two years of it) and went on to achieve amazing results later, having shown little inclination to do so when younger. There isn't a formula for success, and of course how you define success needs to be seen through a prism of values and human qualities too.

As you can probably tell, I would say don't think about spending that money. You may need it later, your child will benefit so much from the cosy atmosphere of the little school, and I bet it won't affect his academic long term chances for the worse one tiny bit.

Woops, it wasn't at all brief was it? I hope at least you think it was relevant as I'm someone who has experience of doing it the other way round.
hermanmunster
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Location: The Seaside

Re: Independent or state primary - I need to make a decision

Post by hermanmunster »

Just my experience (and someone else who was commuting quite a way at that stage) - lived in a village, no school in this case- catchment schools was 4 miles and there was a bus. Kids in the school went to a wide range of schools - some state and a range of small indies. (actually there were about 20 under 11 so they were pretty thinly spread.

I visited the catchment school - was chatting to head re where the kids went on to - "oh this year they are all going to the comprehensive, except of course X - he is going to Y school - but then of course his mother goes to work"....

Wasn't sure after this that they would ever cope with parents who weren't at the school gate (also the head had more problems than that...)

upshot is that I found among friends in villages that the indies coped better with working parents than the local schools. Doesn't mean to say that there aren't some that are much better at it - just the ones I came across.

Re academics - all schools vary - can depend who else is in your year in a small year
kenyancowgirl
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Re: Independent or state primary - I need to make a decision

Post by kenyancowgirl »

I'm interested that your comments are that "you expected him to fly" or be better than he is currently (I am paraphrasing!) Based on what? A lot of parents at primary have an inflated view of their child's capabilities - especially their first one - I'm not saying you have, however, just curious! Have you spoken to his current teacher about how he is doing - has she sat down and assessed him properly (and I don't mean tested him but talked to him, looked at his maths work, English, read with him)? This one to one doesn't always happen - often parents or a TA will read with children weekly, rather than the teacher. Maybe the teacher has a clear plan of what they are doing with him and you may be pleased with that and the cosy support. Maybe the indie won't get any more out of him because that is his true level?

Sport is certainly a big pull for busy parents to indies - but, don't underestimate the experience of a weekend sports club - a whole new range of friends - a social side for parents as well - often a huge variety of skilled coaches. Some indies struggle to have decent teams as the numbers in the class are smaller so everyone has to do it, rather than choosing to do it.

If it is because logistically the indie matches up to your work/childcare needs better, then so be it. But, as a village school officienado, with two boys who successfully made the transition to a superselective GS with no tutoring and very little familiarisation - just encouragement from us - I would rate the being part of the community in which you live, quite high up!
Inaquandry
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 8:45 pm

Re: Independent or state primary - I need to make a decision

Post by Inaquandry »

kenyancowgirl wrote:I'm interested that your comments are that "you expected him to fly" or be better than he is currently (I am paraphrasing!) Based on what? A lot of parents at primary have an inflated view of their child's capabilities - especially their first one - I'm not saying you have, however, just curious! Have you spoken to his current teacher about how he is doing - has she sat down and assessed him properly (and I don't mean tested him but talked to him, looked at his maths work, English, read with him)? This one to one doesn't always happen - often parents or a TA will read with children weekly, rather than the teacher. Maybe the teacher has a clear plan of what they are doing with him and you may be pleased with that and the cosy support. Maybe the indie won't get any more out of him because that is his true level?
I think just because I was always ahead with reading and writing at primary school - I just assumed he'd be the same! I'm a complete beginner with all this school stuff - I'm beginning to realise working is harder when they're at school than it was when they were little.... I've spoken to his teacher twice and both times she has assured me he's doing great, everything is fine...but from what I can see he's on a reading level identified as reception level (he's yr 1) and most of his numbers and letters are back to front....but maybe this is normal!!

It's hard to know really how well the school is doing - the upper years are really small (5 in last yrs yr 6) and the school as a whole has a high proportion of children with SENs so the published average SATS are misleading. The school also teaches mixed year groups and that's hard to get your head round. I suppose really the responses here indicate that either decision will probably be fine....I'm probably making too much of it.
kenyancowgirl
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Re: Independent or state primary - I need to make a decision

Post by kenyancowgirl »

Children develop at different rates - some "read" earlier than others - some can read but don't have a clear understanding of meaning. Most children go through a phase of mirror writing - boys especially! It is difficult to make a judgement on the school you are at without knowing it - mixed year groups are common in smaller state schools and have pros and cons.

Go with where your heart is - don't choose the indie because you are worried about no spaces later on - there are other schools if you have to make that decision at that time. Focus on what is best for you and yours now, at this moment in time. Your son may suddenly make expedential leaps in his work (children develop at different rates, remember) and then may plateau or dip - that's normal too. Or he may not - or he may be diagnosed with an SEN himself (I'm not saying he will - just that you don't know what is going to happen!) and sounds like the school he is in currently would deal with that. Certainly if you do move him, he will make new friends - he may take a while to settle - but kids are resilient. The point is, don't over think it - you are an interested and active parent therefore you will always be aware of his educational needs and can challenge and support him and staff in equal measures, wherever he is - go with where your heart tells you.
mystery
Posts: 8927
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:56 pm

Re: Independent or state primary - I need to make a decision

Post by mystery »

Most schools are a bit of a mystery until you are on the inside. There is a certain amount you can discover with some careful looking around though. Some state schools are better than others and some independents are better than others. You might be living close to a very poor primary school - we can't tell from what you have said. Being in a poor school certainly can affect some children's education. But not always. There are children who do very well in a poor school. It can all depend which teachers they got in which years and also, what goes on / does not go on at home.

Your village school sounds very small and undersubscribed from what you describe. This can make it very hard for them, no matter how good they try to be, as they are funded per child so it can start to show in terms of what can / can't take place because of money. It's a no-win situation. If the standards go down because they can't afford sufficient good teachers and resources then they attract fewer pupils and on it goes. Same in the private sector.

Does the indie have a year 1? If so, go and have a good nose in the year 1 class he will be in and compare standards and try and imagine if your child would fit in with that teacher and particular group of children. It may take away the unknown feeling for you. If they want you they would let you do this I would have thought. Or is there a very long waiting list and that is why you have to decide by this Friday?

I did this when one of my children was in year 2. I managed to work out that at that point in time the standards in the indie year 2 were no better than in my DD's year 2 classroom. But then I was comparing with a not very good independent as they go (but highly rated around here - there's not much competition as everything is strung far apart as no big cities) with a class with a lot of bright children in it and parents who were probably putting in, each in their own way, quite a bit at home because they were not all working full-time at that point in time.

There's so much goes into these comparisons it is bafffling.

You need more information perhaps before making your decision?

Or do you know for certain that the independent really does provide a good education?

Tell us more about his reading --- these reading "levels" business are a bit meaningless. Can he work out what some new words say for himself or not?

He sounds perhaps like my DD - she had a lot back to front letters and numbers-wise for a very long time. She is very good on non-verbal and spatial things. She needed to be taught to read in a very logical way and then she progressed very fast but they thought she was slow at school because she wasn't the type you could have taught to read just by reading loads to her and pointing at the words.

If they group for phonics are they grouping for other things too? Is he in the lower groups for those too? Is his maths what you might expect compared with the new national curriculum for year 1 or do you feel that he is doing less than you might have expected there too?

Yes children develop at different rates, but you do also find that they "develop" faster with some teachers than others! These things are not always internal to the child.

A lot of schools leave learning to read a bit to chance with some children. Yes, many figure it out for themselves by a certain age but others don't and it's nothing to do with IQ except in those with severe learning difficulties, research shows this.

Have you tried looking up your school's KS2 results on DfE performance tables? Do they put their KS1 results on the school website? I know that none of these things are perfect but they are part of the initial finding out process.

You could be right that if you don't take the independent place now you won't get one at a good school in the right area for you at a later stage. It's like that round here.

No-one can make these decisions for you.

Apart from not paying fees you haven't said anything about the primary which makes me feel that you should feel bad about leaving it. But, equally, you haven't said anything about the independent which sells it to me either other than you would be able to continue to work full-time without also having a nanny which is two advantages really.

Good luck!
Stressed?Moi?
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Re: Independent or state primary - I need to make a decision

Post by Stressed?Moi? »

Another thing to ponder (and this is just my experience) is life and social experiences. By this I mean that my 2 at indie seemed (only one now as the other is at grammar) wrapped in a bit of a social bubble ie, what are free school meals? friends' parents worrying about paying bills, missing out on school trips because of lack of cash, dealing with "rougher" kids (snobby and hope this doesn't come across as offensive), choice language, self-harming, making do with less than attractive sports equipment. In short, unless your child is going to leave school and have the sort of "indie kid" lifestyle and not need to face the above issues, then exposure is very helpful. I'm certainly not going to be able to support my two in anything like the sort of lifestyle that many of their classmates are destined for. Mine will have to worry about bills, self-sufficiency, etc. That said, they have thrived at indie primary school and the smaller class sizes have definitely been of benefit, but I have thought it more healthy for them to get into the real world. There are a fair few indie kids at dd's grammar but she has seen the grittier side with friends with challenges and I think it has made her stronger. Just a thought.
mystery
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Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:56 pm

Re: Independent or state primary - I need to make a decision

Post by mystery »

Yes, I think that's true. It does depend, to a degree, on the independent though, but is probably very true at prep school age as there tend to be fewer scholarships and bursaries which would combine to provide a free place to someone who genuinely could not afford it.

It is possible, to not be directly exposed to all these difficulties and still appreciate them - and equally to be exposed to them and have no sympathy or ability to cope if the same happens to oneself. Nothing is straightforward! It's quite possible that this little village school doesn't provide much in the way of real life either.

Learning to read and write is very useful. I think you need to find out if your village primary is any good at this or not. If your village primary has high SEN and your child is in lower groups are they suggesting that in their view he has SEN too?
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