Trafford - examples of questions asked by the panel @ appeal

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Mbrenno84
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:45 pm

Re: Trafford - examples of questions asked by the panel @ ap

Post by Mbrenno84 »

Thanks for all your help. First appeal is tomorrow. Considering a shirt and tie, but it might be overkill.

I timed my presentation to the panel and it went into the 8 mins - is that too long do you think?
Etienne
Posts: 8978
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:26 pm

Re: Trafford - examples of questions asked by the panel @ ap

Post by Etienne »

Mbrenno84 wrote:Thanks for all your help. First appeal is tomorrow. Considering a shirt and tie, but it might be overkill.

I timed my presentation to the panel and it went into the 8 mins - is that too long do you think?
8 minutes should be OK, so long as it's not full of repetition and insignificant points.

Shirt & tie sounds fine.

Good luck!
Etienne
springbloom
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:18 pm

Re: Trafford - examples of questions asked by the panel @ ap

Post by springbloom »

All the best! Please feedback on how it went and what you got asked. Ours is in a couple of weeks.
Mbrenno84
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:45 pm

Re: Trafford - examples of questions asked by the panel @ ap

Post by Mbrenno84 »

Hey there. First appeal done.

1. Local Authority area in which the appeal took place.
Answer: Trafford.



2. What you were appealing against? (a) non-qualification only? (b) oversubscription only? (c) both non-qualification and oversubscription? (d) or something else?
Answer: Oversubscription for a selected number of non-faith positions that were allocated by random allocation.


3b. Year group being appealed for (e.g. Y7 entry):
Answer: Year 7 entry 2021




5. Approx. date of appeal hearing:
Answer: May 2021



6. How many days in advance of the hearing, including weekends, did you receive the case papers?
Answer: Actually a good three/four weeks in advance.



7a. Either: Where was the appeal held (e.g. council offices)?
Answer: MS Teams.




8a. Did your individual hearing start more or less on time?
Answer: Stage 2 started on time, and last 21 mins. Stage 1 started 6 mins late because the headteacher hadn't arrived.



9. Do you know what sort of independent appeal panel you had? For example:
(a) A panel appointed by the Local Authority? - because it's dealing with a community school for which the LA is the admission authority.
(b) A panel appointed by the school? - because it's an academy, foundation or VA school where the governors are the admission authority.
(c) A Local Authority appointed panel acting at the request of the school? - because it's an academy, foundation or VA school where the governors are the admission authority, and they 'hired' a panel from the LA.
(d) Some other panel acting at the request of the school? - because it's an academy, foundation or VA school where the governors are the admission authority, and they 'hired' a panel not from the LA but from a commercial organisation, charity, or some other body.


Answer: I think a panel appointed by the school.



10. Who was on the panel?
(if you were told, e.g. a retired teacher, a businessman, and school governor - no names, please.)

Answer: Three individuals (1) a teacher specialising in SEN, (2) an ex-fire man I think (lay), and I don't know if (3) the chair introduced his profession. Also present was the school head, and 2 legal representatives that prepared the appeals process (and really messed it up, sending out emails with blank links more that once). So it felt a little crowded.



11. Was there a group hearing?
(This is where stage 1 - the LA or school case - is presented to all the parents as a group)

Answer: Yes to a group of 4 parents/carers, perhaps it was the same parents who were going to have their stage 2. Parents 1 asked two questions on budget but didn't really drill down. Parent 2 asked if the school admitted children of any other faith (I really rolled my eyes in my mind here, how on earth did she not know). Parent 3 asked a token question about oversubscription. I asked a series of questions that came to me throughout the school's presentation, after just having one or two in my mind.



12. Did the appeal follow the recommended order of business? This is as follows:
(a) the case for the admission authority;
(b) questioning by the appellants and panel
(c) the case for the appellants;
(d) questioning by the admission authority and panel;
(e) summing up by the admission authority; and
(f) summing up by the appellants.


Answer: Yes



13a. Had your case already been considered by a Review Panel?
(Sometimes applies to non-qualification cases)

Answer: No



13b. If so, were you told that, because your case had already been reviewed, the only issue for the appeal panel was whether the review had been conducted properly?
Answer: Not applicable.



14. What questions were you asked about your case?
Answer: Lay person 2 didn't seem engaged at all. Was on mute the whole time. Didn't ask anything, didn't even know he was there. The chair only spoke to direct the order of business. Only one question from the teacher who questioned a date - I referred to Year 5, and it was actually Year 4. In my summary I brought it up because it felt unfinished and I didn't think she was satisfied - I said "apologies if I've mistakenly referred interchangeably between Year 4 and Year 5". That was it - I don't know what it means that only one point was asked by the panel. The headteacher did ask two questions - one was specific to my daughter's case and an extenuating circumstance I raised, I think to point out that we didn't seek any professional intervention - I maintained that we had it under control as a family and I knew when to reach out for help. The second was to point out that this school was non-selective, so academic ability didn't count. This didn't seem fair, it made it sound like i didn't know this. I did. My points about her academic ability were to show how she was a good match for the school.





15. What were the panel like?
(e.g. Were they friendly? polite? considerate?)

Answer: Non-engaged despite the fact I was personal, and really tried to engage them with personal touches. Only the teacher on the panel smiled a lot and asked a question. I think she appeared sympathetic to an extenuating circumstance, but was the same teacher who pulled me up on the year 4/year5 point.



16. As far as you know, was the representative of the admission authority left alone with the panel at any point in time? (It's acceptable for the representative to be waiting outside the room, but he/she must not be already in the room with the panel when you arrive, or remain in the room with the panel when you leave.)
Answer: I don't think so. We all were let in at the same time it felt.



17. Were you asked at the end of the hearing whether you had had sufficient time to state your case (or words to that effect)?
Answer: No.



18. Did you feel rushed?
Answer: A little only because it didn't feel that I was engaging them. Apart from the headteacher and the panel teacher, the other two may as well have not been there.



19. How long did the hearing last?
(excluding the group hearing, if there was one)

Answer: Stage 2 lasted 21 mins. 10 mins of those were my "speech".



20. Were you told you could telephone for the decision (most authorities do not allow this, although some do)?
Answer: Told they had to respond within 7 days, but the last appeal was 1st June. So letters would be posted 8th June.



21. If you have the result, was your appeal successful?
Answer: I'll happily follow up.



23. Success rates for appeals for this school (if known):
(a) on this occasion

Answer: 3 appeals admitted in 2019/2020. And a history of accepting over the years, as opposed to not at all.


24. Any other comments or information which might be helpful to other parents?
Answer: Do you research and have evidence. I made the point of saying "evidenced" a lot and point to something. There was one parent in Stage 1 who really showed herself up asking a silly question. Find the person you can engage and go for them - in this case the school headteacher and the panel teacher. And I made sure I thanked them, and commented that the headteacher was really passionate about their school. I spent two mins on my summary after following the guidance here and they appreciated that, it really allowed me to hammer home the points I raised. I also finished my stage 2 'speech' with a personal story that I tried to engage with the crowd with. I had flipped screen by that point to see my notes so couldn't see their reaction but when I flipped back the same two looked completely wooden. The headteacher however said that my daughter sounded like a lovely child and seemed really approachable - I liked him if I wasn't going up against him! I know it's hard to evaluate how a case went, I'd have been happier with more questions that I could have answered as it really felt it was just me talking into the wind. I'd love to hear your input, even if you're just indulging me! I'll follow up with the result of this appeal in June. Next appeal next Monday ... and that Altrincham Girls!
springbloom
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:18 pm

Re: Trafford - examples of questions asked by the panel @ ap

Post by springbloom »

That's really useful, thanks. Will be interesting to see if you come across the same panel members again. I don't know why people would volunteer to do it if they aren't going to engage.
What kind of questions did you ask at stage 1?
Mbrenno84
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:45 pm

Re: Trafford - examples of questions asked by the panel @ ap

Post by Mbrenno84 »

springbloom wrote:That's really useful, thanks. Will be interesting to see if you come across the same panel members again. I don't know why people would volunteer to do it if they aren't going to engage.
What kind of questions did you ask at stage 1?
I agree. I would say that even if they didn’t have any questions, at least look interested. Subjective comment perhaps but I can’t even remember anything about him, he was that insignificant in the process.

I challenged the schools comments about having no money and no space, with arguments from the government website relating to funding. To be fair the school had a comeback but if nothing else it made me stand out to the panel.
Etienne
Posts: 8978
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:26 pm

Re: Trafford - examples of questions asked by the panel @ ap

Post by Etienne »

Many thanks, Mbrenno84, for such a detailed report.
Would you mind posting it in the feedback section as well?
It's so helpful that it would be ideal to have it in both threads.

It sounds to me as if you handled the appeal hearing really well.
Impossible to guess the outcome, of course, not least because it depends on factors outside your control (e.g. the strength of the school case as perceived by the panel, and possibly the strength of the other appellants' cases).

It's also difficult to know what to make of the lack of questions. It may be that the case was presented with such clarity that they would have been superfluous! :)

The 2010 Appeals Code said:
    • they [the panel] need to .... play an active part in the questioning both of the presenting officer and the parent.
Unfortunately this wording (and much else) disappeared from the current slimmed down Code.
Etienne
Mbrenno84
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:45 pm

Re: Trafford - examples of questions asked by the panel @ ap

Post by Mbrenno84 »

Hah. Thanks Etienne. I would love it that were true but truly it felt more like they had made up their mind and I was just going through the process. Am I the only one who is appealing all four of the grammar schools excluding Loreto. It feels like once you spend time preparing for one appeal you may as well throw your hat into the ring for the other schools as well. You’ve pretty much done a lot of the work and then you just need to tailor the case to make it specific to that school.

For Stretford she actually passed the CEM so it feels as though there may be the smallest of possibilities there. For Two of the others she was close except in the case of Altrincham however I may as well go for it.

I will post it in the other forum as well. Always happy to get further feedback.
Mbrenno84
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:45 pm

Re: Trafford - examples of questions asked by the panel @ ap

Post by Mbrenno84 »

I remember what I wanted to ask. Highly presumptuous but let’s assume I do get in on appeal. Then what? How long do I have to accept that and refuse the current place that she has been allocated? I would want to wait until I know about the other appeals but will I be able to do that time wise?
Etienne
Posts: 8978
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:26 pm

Re: Trafford - examples of questions asked by the panel @ ap

Post by Etienne »

It feels like once you spend time preparing for one appeal you may as well throw your hat into the ring for the other schools as well
I agree. There's so much luck involved, it usually makes sense to cast one's net as wide as possible for little additional effort.

I'm sure you wouldn't do this but I can recall some cases where parents appeared to have sent in identical submissions - to the extent that they hadn't even changed the name of the school they were appealing for. Ouch! :lol:
How long do I have to accept that and refuse the current place
I think you would have to ask your LA. As far as I recall there's no set period of time specified in the legislation - other than that it must be "reasonable".
Etienne
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