Appeal Hearing Taking Place At The School

loveandlight · Post by **loveandlight** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:02 pm

I have found and can prove that the school is in breach of their admissions criteria and their practices have breached legislation or the Code in two instances. Do I mention it to them and send in the evidence now or save it and mention it at the appeal hearing?

Marylou · Post by **Marylou** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:32 pm

loveandlight wrote:I have found and can prove that the school is in breach of their admissions criteria and their practices have breached legislation or the Code in two instances. Do I mention it to them and send in the evidence now or save it and mention it at the appeal hearing?

I don't think pulling it out of the hat during the hearing as a "coup de grace" is a good idea, tempting though it may be!

The panel would probably need to adjourn to consider the new evidence and this might cause delay. It is only fair to give the school a chance to prepare its explanation when the issue comes up during the appeal, as it inevitably will. If the evidence you have found really is compelling then there simply is no defence, and the fact that you flagged it up beforehand shows you to be fair-minded. JMO!

Good luck on Wednesday!

Post by **Etienne** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:28 pm

Could you tell us which breaches you are referring to?

loveandlight · Post by **loveandlight** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:41 pm

Thank you Marylou. I'll post and let you all know how it goes on Wednesday.

posted by Etienne
Could you tell us which breaches you are referring to?

The application form you have to fill out when applying for a school place asks
1)whether it is your first preference school or not
2)whether you have applied for a place at another school
3)your reasons why you want a place at that particular school
4)what the main modern language is that your child studies.

Post by **Etienne** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:16 pm

Thanks. We need to make a distinction between (a) breaches of the Code that have deprived you of a place you would otherwise have obtained, and (b) breaches of the Code that have not affected your application.

Marylou's advice is what I would give if you were thinking of introducing something significant with regard to your own appeal.

In this instance, however, I would urge extreme caution because I do not see how you can establish that you have been disadvantaged. Instead you risk giving the impression of just trying to score points, and might lose the sympathy of the panel.

loveandlight · Post by **loveandlight** » Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:01 pm

I appreciate what you are saying Etienne but the Codes were brought in for a reason and schools are supposed to adhere to them so that every parent has a fair and equal chance of a place. I fail to see how the panel can see me as scoring points and I am not after their sympathy. In any event the appeal panel are under a duty to notify the Schools Adjudicator of non compliance of the Codes and one of my questions in the hearing relates to the questions the school ask in their application form so it is such a blatant breach the panel will pick up on it anyway.

I also fail to see how I am at risk of upsetting the panel when I didn't make the law. I am merely following it. You don't see how we have been disadvantaged because you are not in possession of all the facts. I am merely trying to learn as much as I can about the procedure so I do everything I am supposed to do. All my previous questions on this forum clearly show that I am constantly trying to do the right thing.

As a parent we are told it is an informal affair and yet so much talk seems to go on about not upsetting the appeal panel.

I also have to deal on Monday with the fact that the appeal clerk has only submitted part of my case to the panel.

I have definitely learned a lot from this forum and am so much more confident and knowledgable now than I was a couple of weeks ago and I have you partly to thank for that.

Back to preparing my questions for the hearing...

Post by **Etienne** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:49 am

it is such a blatant breach the panel will pick up on it anyway.

- which is one reason why you should have no need to raise it (although if this particular panel has been hearing appeals for the school for some time, it begs the question why 'first preference' is still on the school application form).

If your concern is that the school shouldn't be allowed to get away with a 'first preference' policy, I agree absolutely, but if it hasn't affected the way in which your application was processed, this is best dealt with separately by referral to the LA/Adjudicator/DCSF. Surely the issue should be trying to win an appeal, not enforcement of the Codes! I fully accept that I do not know all the facts, but I can only try and help on the basis of what you tell us!

I'm not convinced that all four points are breaches of the Code anyway. For example, my understanding was that authorities are required to give parents an opportunity to state reasons for their preferences.

There are only two ways to win an appeal like this:
1. You can show that you have been deprived of a place as a result of maladministration. This is a strictly objective judgement . The problem is that, if other children have also been refused as a result of the same error, they may possibly have a higher claim to a place.
2. Alternatively, your reasons for needing a place are so strong as to outweigh any prejudice to the school. This can be a somewhat subjective judgement, which is why it's no bad thing to have the sympathy of the panel (especially where the decision turns out to be a borderline one).

All my previous questions on this forum clearly show that I am constantly trying to do the right thing

And, based on the information you have provided, my answers have tried to help you present your case as effectively as possible ........

loveandlight · Post by **loveandlight** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:21 pm

Etienne - I have come on this board to learn and I now have the information that I need. I have no desire to argue/debate with you over the points I have raised and I would never dream of asking on here for an opinion on the facts of my case or my chances of winning the appeal as no-one knows what the outcome will be except the panel themselves.

If you want to take issue with what I have said in my posts and if you want to pick at my posts to show you are right then please go ahead and do it. I respect the fact you have helped me in the past and I will hold onto that.

The school admissions code makes it very clear that they are breaches and I do not believe for one minute the appeal panel will look upon me in a bad light just because the questions in my appeal highlight the fact that there have been various breaches of the Code.

On the government website itself it says complaints have been investigated where admissions criteria and practices have breached legislation of the Code in exactly the circumstances I have mentioned above.

If I lose my appeal because the panel believe I am trying to score points then so be it. At least I will know that I tried my best and I will be happy knowing that other families will benefit from what I have discovered and I will be genuinely pleased for them.

Marylou · Post by **Marylou** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:30 pm

I think Etienne is simply saying that there are ways and means...ultimately you want to win your appeal. You can bring up anything you like in an appeal but it is important to do it in a way that will keep the panel onside. If there has been a blatant breach then the panel will indeed take note of it even though it might not be the reason why you did not get the school place, and might even be more disposed toward you because of it, if your reasons for wanting the school are also strong enough.

In our own case we uncovered something that had been done incorrectly years before which impacted on our case but was outside the panel's remit. After some consideration we decided to include the evidence in our submission and also mentioned it briefly during the hearing just to make sure the panel had picked up on it (they had!) and then concentrated on presenting our reasons why the school was the best one for our daughter, as advised by Etienne. In the event, the panel even ended up questioning the LA rep about some apparent inconsistencies in their policy which we had also noticed but had decided not to mention! If we had not won our appeal we would have taken our case to the LGO on the basis of what we considered to be maladministration, but even winning that stage would probably have been a hollow victory as DD would still not have got her place at the school.

I hope it goes well for you on Wednesday.

Post by **Etienne** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:08 pm

Interesting to compare with your case, Marylou, where the "brief mention" technique worked like a dream!

I very nearly suggested it to LandL, but in the end didn't because:
1. It's not clear to me that her four points are all breaches of the Code.
2. It's not clear what the link is between the four points and any impact on her application.

I therefore think this could be a complete distraction, and take the focus away from the important points in her case.

LandL writes

I will be happy knowing that other families will benefit from what I have discovered and I will be genuinely pleased for them.

- but no one is saying possible breaches of the Code shouldn't be investigated. These can be referred directly to the LA/Adjudicator/DCSF.

LandL also writes

you are not in possession of all the facts

so we seem to be working in the dark, and my advice might well be different if there is indeed some sort of maladministration in the way her application was processed.

She is right in thinking that the outcome of an appeal is totally unpredictable. Her own case seems to me to deserve serious consideration, and she could be successful even if her approach is not what I would recommend.

I sincerely hope it goes well on Wednesday.