Panel Meeting: Letter changes the grounds for appeal
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The letter says that each appeal is scheduled for no more than 15 mins.
I know we need more time and are entitled to it but how do we get it without alienating the panel and the clerk (other parents will have appeals directly after us, the panel will be under pressure to deal with a number of cases per day etc).
I know we need more time and are entitled to it but how do we get it without alienating the panel and the clerk (other parents will have appeals directly after us, the panel will be under pressure to deal with a number of cases per day etc).
Another reason why you must remain courteous at all times, while standing your ground!
It's not your fault. If it's 15 minutes for both stage 1 and stage 2, that's disgraceful.
Do your best to finish your case.
The Code states:
If you're not asked this question, and haven't had sufficient time, make sure that you say so ("With respect, chair, I'm concerned that insufficient time has been allowed for the hearing, and I would like the clerk to record that I've not been able to finish my case.")
Keep a careful note of the precise start and finish times.
It's not your fault. If it's 15 minutes for both stage 1 and stage 2, that's disgraceful.
Do your best to finish your case.
The Code states:
It says that the chair is responsible foreach side must be given the opportunity to state their case without unreasonable
interruption
The role of the clerk is toensuring that everyone has the opportunity to state their case and to ask questions, but then to draw matters to a conclusion if arguments become repetitive. The chair may need to give each party a specific period of time to make any final points or comments they would want the panel to consider [the bold print is mine]
A good panel will ask you at the end if you've had sufficient time. If you haven't, say so, and check that the clerk is recording your answer.ensure that both the appellants and the admission authority have the opportunity to present relevant facts at the hearing.
If you're not asked this question, and haven't had sufficient time, make sure that you say so ("With respect, chair, I'm concerned that insufficient time has been allowed for the hearing, and I would like the clerk to record that I've not been able to finish my case.")
Keep a careful note of the precise start and finish times.
Etienne
Good. This is what the Code says:PJ wrote:I have prepared a letter for the school requesting the information you suggested.
I hope they co-operate. Asking for the Net Capacity Assessment and a breakdown of numbers on roll would not be considered unreasonable requests.Admission authorities must give appellants appropriate guidance and information before the hearing to enable them to prepare their case for appeal (see paragraphs 2.3 to 2.11) and, having regard to the Data Protection Act 1998 and Freedom of Information Act 2000, must respond to any reasonable requests for information about the school or the admissions process that the appellant may think they need to help them with this preparation. Appellants are entitled to question the presenting officer during proceedings. The role of the appellant at the appeal hearing is a particularly difficult one and this needs to be taken account of at all times by the panel. [my bold print]
The Appeals Code states that a letter of refusal must be included in the case papers, but I would always draw a distinction between purely technical breaches of the Code, which won't help you to win your case, and breaches that clearly cause an injustice.My son is in the primary catchment area for the school - so had to just pass the exam to get automatic entry into the School. We have the letter sent by the school stating that he had failed the exam (but not giving us the results) and therefore wouldn't be offered a place. The letter from the LEA just states that he wasn't offered a place in either his first (the GS or second choice of school).
Difficult, because I assume that slots have already been allocated. It wouldn't matter so much if yours happened to be the last appeal of the day. If they don't have a full day to finish with, they might be able to move you to the very end, but I guess they're not in the business of enabling or encouraging lengthy hearings! If you're writing to them anyway, you could try suggesting that you do not feel the time allocated will be adequate for you to be able to present your case, and "Is there any possibility of a longer slot (e.g. at the end of the hearings)?". Even if they say 'No', they can't then claim that they weren't forewarned.Can we request more time?
I've sent you an email.
Etienne
Time to Present your case
I have requested more time, however, the Clerk has refused the request. The only concesssion offered was that sometimes the Clerk lets meetings run over for a few mins.
We have to present our case, addresss the issues raised by the HM in his written response against our academic appeal and present our response to his claim for prejudice within the 15mins. Within this 15 mins we also have to sum up, listen to the HM's case, listen to his summary, take questions from the panel and the HM and ask the HM questions.
AHHHHHH!!!!!!
After reading the forum the norm seems to be that you have more than a few mins to present your case? Has anyone else had to present their case within such a short period of time? I would really welcome any experiences or advice!
We have to present our case, addresss the issues raised by the HM in his written response against our academic appeal and present our response to his claim for prejudice within the 15mins. Within this 15 mins we also have to sum up, listen to the HM's case, listen to his summary, take questions from the panel and the HM and ask the HM questions.
AHHHHHH!!!!!!
After reading the forum the norm seems to be that you have more than a few mins to present your case? Has anyone else had to present their case within such a short period of time? I would really welcome any experiences or advice!
Appeal: Oversubscription
We are working on the second part of the appeal - related to the Schools claim of prejudice.
The additional information finally arrived on Friday and the appeal is in just over a week. We now have info on the teaching space and the number of sucessful appeals in the past (which indicate that the school has taken other students beyond their quota), however, we don't have more information on resources.
I would really appreciate any advice or experience on how other parents have dealt with the issue of prejudice.
The additional information finally arrived on Friday and the appeal is in just over a week. We now have info on the teaching space and the number of sucessful appeals in the past (which indicate that the school has taken other students beyond their quota), however, we don't have more information on resources.
I would really appreciate any advice or experience on how other parents have dealt with the issue of prejudice.
PJ - The school DS is hoping to get a place at have stated that drain on resources is a minor issue compared to sizes of classrooms and implication of having to take a whole extra, or even half of, a form group. I got the impression they were saying that needing to employ extra teachers would be almost impossible and I have to agree.
The school did provided the numbers of students in each year group, overall and the net capacity. This helps to guage how many 'over' PAN they have taken in the past but, and Etienne suggestied this information would be useful:
I suggest as a matter of urgency that you write and ask for the following information which you need for the appeal (and had thought would be included in the case papers):
1. A full copy of the school's most recent net capacity assessment
2. A breakdown of the expected numbers in each year group in September (the current numbers will do if they make a fuss!)
3. The total number on roll
It will be interesting to see whether any classes have been above 30, in which case you can ask what evidence there is that this has prejudiced the education of the other 30 children.
The point about having any classes over 30 and asking if there was evidence the has prejudiced the education of the other children is very important. It would be very difficult to argue not to take 31 in a class if they have often done so without any real problems.
Good luck!
The school did provided the numbers of students in each year group, overall and the net capacity. This helps to guage how many 'over' PAN they have taken in the past but, and Etienne suggestied this information would be useful:
I suggest as a matter of urgency that you write and ask for the following information which you need for the appeal (and had thought would be included in the case papers):
1. A full copy of the school's most recent net capacity assessment
2. A breakdown of the expected numbers in each year group in September (the current numbers will do if they make a fuss!)
3. The total number on roll
It will be interesting to see whether any classes have been above 30, in which case you can ask what evidence there is that this has prejudiced the education of the other 30 children.
The point about having any classes over 30 and asking if there was evidence the has prejudiced the education of the other children is very important. It would be very difficult to argue not to take 31 in a class if they have often done so without any real problems.
Good luck!
Thank you T12ACY - I now know that they have had more students than 30 in the past ..so I have a glimmer of hope. We will ask your question 
I am now refining the bit on why DS should attend the school.
So far its:
Sibling at the same school
Transport difficulties
Bullying (we don't have evidence
)
Educational - the GS has the specialism at which DS excels while the school allocated was challenged by Ofstead as having lower than national results and significant problems in the teaching of the subjects.
In retrospect we should have spent a lot more time on this bit - a learning point.
I am now refining the bit on why DS should attend the school.
So far its:
Sibling at the same school
Transport difficulties
Bullying (we don't have evidence
)Educational - the GS has the specialism at which DS excels while the school allocated was challenged by Ofstead as having lower than national results and significant problems in the teaching of the subjects.
In retrospect we should have spent a lot more time on this bit - a learning point.
Good luck
I was asked why it was important for DS to go to school with siblings now when he hadn't been with them for 4 years. Just in case u get asked this. I was a bit surprised given what I had explained already in my presentation and that DS was now only old enough to transfer to secondary.... Couldn't have held siblings back or sent DS early now could I????
I was asked why it was important for DS to go to school with siblings now when he hadn't been with them for 4 years. Just in case u get asked this. I was a bit surprised given what I had explained already in my presentation and that DS was now only old enough to transfer to secondary.... Couldn't have held siblings back or sent DS early now could I????
It's no bad thing to appear nervous or even distressed. It shows you really do care.
Ask a few questions about the school case, but try not to follow up with statements, or to get drawn into any sort of argument. Let the panel draw their own conclusions from the answers given.
You need to keep the focus on your own case, and to come across at all times as very 'reasonable parents'.
If the presenting officer asks forceful questions to try and undermine your case, keep your answers as short as possible, and it's a good technique to direct them at the panel rather than at the presenting officer. (It helps take the 'heat' out of the situation, and also makes the point that it doesn't matter what the presenting officer thinks - it's the panel who will decide!)
You have a good case, PJ, and it deserves very serious consideration from any fair-minded panel .
Good luck!
Ask a few questions about the school case, but try not to follow up with statements, or to get drawn into any sort of argument. Let the panel draw their own conclusions from the answers given.
You need to keep the focus on your own case, and to come across at all times as very 'reasonable parents'.
If the presenting officer asks forceful questions to try and undermine your case, keep your answers as short as possible, and it's a good technique to direct them at the panel rather than at the presenting officer. (It helps take the 'heat' out of the situation, and also makes the point that it doesn't matter what the presenting officer thinks - it's the panel who will decide!)
You have a good case, PJ, and it deserves very serious consideration from any fair-minded panel .
Good luck!
Etienne