Clerk's notes

[Etienne]

the clerk seemed to like it

I suspect every clerk would appreciate it!
Otherwise they're under enormous pressure to keep up with what is being said.

My other bit of advice would be to try and keep an eye on the clerk during the Q&A session to see if they appear to be keeping up. Not an easy thing to do in the heat of the moment, but if the appellant is accompanied by a partner or friend, may be he/she could take on this role, and if necessary ask "Are we going too fast for you?"

A good chair should also be prepared to intervene in this way, of course. And a good clerk shouldn't be afraid to say "I'm sorry, could I just ask you to slow down for a moment?" or "Could I check that I've got this correct .....?"

[I moved this discussion from the other topic on support for appellants as I thought it merited a thread of its own.]

[T12ACY]

This I do find interesting, I was distracted during the Q&A part of our hearing.... by the fact the clerk seemed to be writing nothing down at all! Don't remember witnessing anything being written down by ours, perhaps they just had a good memory???

[Etienne]

the clerk seemed to be writing nothing down at all!

In this instance, too, it would be worth looking to see what the clerk is doing and, if necessary, asking "I do think this is a significant point - has it been noted for the record?" (Again, not an easy thing to do when under pressure.)

perhaps they just had a good memory

This would contradict the requirement that notes should be contemporaneous. I seem to recall LFH's notes were written up at a later date - a dubious practice that shouldn't have been allowed, but probably developed because no one had ever previously demanded to have sight of the notes.

[Looking for help]

I had some correspondence on this forum from someone who had requested the notes of their appeal in a previous year, and was told that their notes had been destroyed. So I guess at least some headway was made in that we did eventually get something back. Our clerk did seem to write an awful lot down, but due to the 'writing them up' nonsense, I can never believe that ours were any different to anyone else's.

[Morning Glory]

Although we won our appeal I requested he clerks notes. As our case was very complex and I thought I understood why the panel had made their decision but I wanted to know for sure on what grounds the decision was made. It also gives me some clout when putting forward evidence for other SEN issues. Although the summary notes are clear the notes of the actually hearing are hard to read and if you weren't there I don't think they would make any sense at all.

Glad I got them though.

MG

[capers123]

The Clerks I work with tend to do a fairly good job in noting as much down as they can, but certainly like a copy of the parents notes if possible as it does save a lot of hassle.

That said, I prefer appeals where the bulk of the evidence has been sent in before hand so I get chance to read through it at home and absorb it. The appeal hearing then just has the parents coming up with a summary of what they've sent us, reinforcing the important (to them) points, and allowing us to ask questions, where we may be able to draw out more information as to what we think are important points.

If you're making a 5 page speech to the panel, don't expect the clerk to be able to write it down word for word.

Also, us panel members have pencils and paper in front of us as well, and I often make notes on front of the paperwork and highlight points that are very important to me - I rely on my memory as well as the clerks notes, and it's not unknown for the two to disagree - if the clerk has been busy writing, she or he may have missed a point, or we have interpreted a point differently.

My notes will be handed back to the clerk after the appeal as once we've made our decision that's the end of our involvement.

The concept of having notes 'corrected' is odd to me, as once the decision has been made, the notes are no longer of use apart from maybe to the ombudsman.

Finally, on those rare occasions where my notes & the clerks disagree, it tends to be on a very minor point, which would not have changed the outcome of an appeal.

[PJ]

I think the posts on this thread really illustrate the fact that the quality of the notes really depends on the effectiveness of the Clerk! This really shouldn't be the case!

I think having a true and accurate record of the meeting is important as the only evidence to ensure a check and balance on the effectiveness of justice is the notes. It they aren't accurate or have been destroyed then the ombudsman can't play an effective role in ensuring that there has been 'fair play'.


So - for example - part of our case related to thr fact that I work some distance away from the school. One of the panel members talked to me at some length about this (having had to travel on the same motorway for some time). Not one word of this was recorded in the notes! So as far as the ombudsman is concerned this just didn't happen.

Equally, inour case the notes of the HM statement and the Chair's statement deviates so wildly from what was actual said that we can only think that the Clerk used a generic text (cut and pasted the statements) for all the different notes.

I could go on...and on and on!

The bottom line for me is that the notes should either be verbatim (as in a court) or should be open to review and agreement (just as any minutes of a meeting are).

[capers123]

Equally, inour case the notes of the HM statement and the Chair's statement deviates so wildly from what was actual said that we can only think that the Clerk used a generic text (cut and pasted the statements) for all the different notes.

That doesn't surprise me, in that it's usual for the HM / School side statement to be identical for all appeals, differing only in name and if it's a oversubscription or non-qual appeal. It would be very odd (and noted by the panel) if the School side started giving out different reasons for different appeals.

That said, the Clerk should have noted down the original school side words from the first appeal - or, more to the point, have been given a copy of the school sides case. If fact, it's normal where I am for the school side just to read out the case that they've given in writing and would have already been sent to the parents as part of the pre-appeal docs (in the same way that the parents docs are sent to the school side and also to the panel).

If the case on the day differed compared with the written statement, then surely that might constitute a major change of evidence!

This isn't the same as any evidence given as replies to questions from the panel / parents.

[Rob Clark]

The clerk has a very demanding task, keeping up with what is being said, making instant judgements about what the significant points are, and recording them accurately.

Etienne, this is the perfect summary of why a recording would be a better solution

it would undoubtedly make appeals even more formal and intimidating as everyone will be watching every single word they utter in case it should later be used in evidence against them.

But with all due respect, they are already formal, and often intimidating, purely because of the very nature of them. At the moment we’re told that they’re a quasi-legal process against which their is no right of appeal but if parents ask for the clerk’s notes they are told that they aren’t a verbatim record of the proceedings. Well I’m sorry, but they jolly well should be! Why should it be up to already-stressed parents to keep an eye on the clerk and what they are writing?

In my profession I routinely tape every meeting or conversation, whether on the phone or face to face, and in 20+ years I have never yet had an objection to doing so. Recording things is a neutral process – it doesn’t favour either ‘side’ – and is only an adversarial approach if people think it is. At the moment appeal panels can hide behind the process whereas parents have no such recourse.

[Looking for help]

I have to say that it is either a legal process or it isn't. If I had to do it all again, I would take legal representation in with me to ensure to my satisfaction that the panel and clerk followed the Appeals Code as far as possible, as in our case we felt afterwards it was a sham. I recognise that there are panels out there that are doing a great job to the best of their ability, but I fear our case was not heard by one. I would also like to see a full audit trail, if you like, of how the decision reached was arrived at, so that I knew that the evidence provided was carefully considered. I also know that if the outcome had been different I would have had a completely different view of the panel, but such is life.