Who's been for their appeal already?

[rubyrubyruby]

Well the die is cast...hearing was this afternoon

both my DH and I do a lot of presenting for work, but I was more nervouse than I can remember being. Panel were charming and friendly- we were the last session of the day and they seemed pretty relaxed (and on time)

They had clearly read the information carefully and prepared questions- I was glad I was forewarned about how "intimate" (ie cramped) the setting was- it was a small meeting room with a legally trained clerk (nice youngster) and the LEA chap who was also very warm.

We felt we had planty of time to cover all we wanted and the questions were considered but not particularly probing- "how was he on the morning of the tests, does he know you are appealing, how did he react when he saw his result" the only more difficult ones were around the fact that he had been bullied and seemed to be quite solitary in his pursuits..how would he cope in a larger school, although the panel member pointed out herself that this would be an issue whichever shcool he went to.

Overall we felt really glad we had prepared hard for Q&A'a as we used the time to try to gently push in a few of the areas we wanted to cover.

I was a bit surprised at the end when the LEA chap was asked to sum up and then I was asked to sum up on behalf of DS- had to make something up on the spot.

Now the wait.

My heartfelt thanks to Sally-Anne and Etienne and all who have posted, PM'd and otherwise contributed to this site- I at least feel we could have done no more and that is worth a great deal in my book

RRR

[tcd27]

Hi ,appealed for my twins with results of 120 and 114 with very strong extenduating circumstances.Twin 1 was granted a grammar place ,twin 2 not.Very upset for twin 2 .HT very angry and wants us to complain to ombudsman.Feels twin 2 treated unfairly.Appeal was very stressful ,they hardly talked about twin 1 seemed like forgone conclusion.
Has anyone had experience on complaining to Ombudsman.

[thefirs]

Sounds like u had an ok time of it rrr, wish I had been asked those kind of questions that I was prepared for!

Tcd27 - so sorry for you, what an awful situation for u and the twins , vvv hard I can imagine. U must be at a loss to know what to do next.

Still feeling down myself & feel like I blame myself for waffling etc at the questions .

[Etienne]

The clerk's notes are discussed in the Q&As here:
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeals/ombudsman#d4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and in E14 b (Bucks):
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeal ... aneous#e14" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just one word of caution re. requesting the clerk’s notes. You can read them and completely disagree with what they say, feel that they have failed to consider and/or misconstrued some of the evidence but nevertheless find no reason for an appeal to the Ombudsman which, as dejavu points out, can only consider points of maladministration.
Our appeal panel did exactly what was expected of them. However, we felt that they had absolutely no understanding of DD’s chronic medical condition or its possible impact on her test results, and if they did indeed read the medical evidence we provided there was no reference to it whatsoever in any of the notes .....

All of the evidence taken into account should at the very least have been listed somewhere. It may be that the ombudsman was satisfied that consideration was given to the medical condition, even if there was no obvious discussion of (for example) a letter from a consultant - I'm just speculating. Failure to consider an important part of the case properly would normally be a serious matter.

Like Rob, our notes when we finally got them (with the help of the ombudsman, I have to say) reflected nothing about what evidence was taken into account, nor how a decision was reached in our case. I am a little bit interested in differences between counties....is there a prescribed format for these notes to follow in Bucks, and if so, must they be followed, or is it up to individual panels/clerks to record proceedings as they see fit?

LFH was appealing to an own-admission authority school. I suspect this was the first time a parent had ever asked for the clerk's notes, and that the clerk didn't really know what to do! The notes were unwisely refused without any attempt at a legal justification, and eventually (if I remember correctly) the Information Commissioner ruled in LFH's favour.

This is what the Code of Practice says:

Notes and records of proceedings
2.39 In addition to notes taken during appeals to assist the panel’s decision-making process, the clerk must keep brief notes of the proceedings, attendance, voting and decisions (together with the reasons for these decisions) in such form as the panel and clerk may agree is appropriate. Notes of the proceedings may be typed or hand written and ought to be clear.
2.40 Notes and records of proceedings taken by the clerk are the property of the appeal panel. Whilst these are not normally available to the parties following the hearing, panels must ensure they are prepared and retained on the basis that they may be required to be disclosed, for example:
a) following requests from the Local Government Ombudsman as part of his or her investigation of a complaint about the conduct of an appeal; or
b) where information is required as part of court proceedings, for example, where a panel’s decision is challenged by judicial review.
Personal notes made by individual panel members during hearings to aid them during the decision-making part of the process do not form part of the official record of the hearing and do not need to be retained.
2.41 The notes of the proceedings of appeal panels are not subject to the Freedom of Information Act 2000. Where the notes are held for administrative purposes by an admission authority which is subject to the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (for example, where a local authority’s legal department retains the notes on file, or the notes are retained in a school office) there is no obligation for the admission authority to comply with a request for copies of the notes. In this situation, either:
a) the admission authority will hold notes on behalf of the panel, in which case the notes will not be held by the authority for the purposes of the Freedom of Information Act; or
b) the notes will fall within the exemption applying to court or tribunal records.
2.42 Where a request has been made under the Data Protection Act 1998 for access to personal data contained in the records of proceedings, whether that data should be disclosed will depend on a number of factors including: the identity of the person making the request; the nature and individual circumstances of the appeal; the way in which the data are held; and the interests of any third parties identified in the data. Appeal panels or clerks may therefore wish to obtain their own legal advice before responding to such a request.

It is extremely unsatisfactory in LFH's case that the notes reflected nothing about what evidence was taken into account, nor how a decision was reached. This can be one of the problems with an own-admission authority appeal panel, where there is just a single clerk. Large authorities have a team of administrators, and their own lawyers to whom they can turn for advice. Bucks has a very structured approach to the clerk's notes - it's something that it chooses to do, above and beyond the Code which focuses on substance rather than format.

both my DH and I do a lot of presenting for work, but I was more nervous than I can remember being.

Yes, even people who are experienced at 'presenting' can find appeal hearings daunting!

I was a bit surprised at the end when the LEA chap was asked to sum up and then I was asked to sum up on behalf of DS- had to make something up on the spot.

See the Q&As:
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeal ... aneous#e19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It's also on the Order of Business sent with the appeal papers.
It's optional, however (i.e. you don't have to. )

We felt we had planty of time to cover all we wanted and the questions were considered but not particularly probing- "how was he on the morning of the tests, does he know you are appealing, how did he react when he saw his result" the only more difficult ones were around the fact that he had been bullied and seemed to be quite solitary in his pursuits..how would he cope in a larger school, although the panel member pointed out herself that this would be an issue whichever shcool he went to.

Sometimes, if the case is straightforward (in the sense that everything is clear), panels might struggle to come up with good questions!

Hi ,appealed for my twins with results of 120 and 114 with very strong extenduating circumstances.Twin 1 was granted a grammar place ,twin 2 not.Very upset for twin 2 .HT very angry and wants us to complain to ombudsman.

So very sorry to hear of your disappointment.

As discussed above, there would need to be a procedural error for a valid complaint.

See:
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeals/ombudsman" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Looking for help]

Etienne...you have an incredible memory I can barely remember what happened myself.

We did go to the ombudsman, for the simple reason that when we requested the clerk's notes from our hearing, we were at first refused, then told the clerk would have to take legal advice, then something about it will take 6 weeks because she had taken them in shorthand, and would have to type them up. The ombudsman did take the case on, and after some toings and froings, and the eventual appearance of the clerk's notes which could have been about any appellant for any school, the ombudsman did make some concerns known to the school in question about procedural errors, especially to do with the notes and the decision letter that we received. However it was not sufficient as to cause injustice so nothing came of it. It is another long drawn out process, that was not eventually concluded until the August before the start of the new school year. However I have to say I would do it again, because these people need to follow procedure properly, and I'm not sure they all do. However our appeal was for a Slough school, and Bucks seem to have a more transparent approach - that is not to say they are all run properly without procedural error.

My advice, tcd27 is to request the clerk's notes and review these and the decision letter, and see if there's anything there that shows the panel/clerk have not acted in accordance with the code, if there is, you can have a chat on the ombudsman's advice line. The people there will give you advice on whether it would be worthwhile to pursue a complaint.

[Morning Glory]

Just to say that from our Clerks Notes it is clear that they had taken into account the numerous medical reports, considered DDA, reviewed our requests for adjustments (we made two seperate applications), read our complex case thoroughly - an invigilators report was submitted (by the school) which we had no idea about before we got the appeal papers. It was extremely clear, transparent and even if we hadn't won our case could not really fault the way it was dealt with.

[Cola]

Hi RRR,

Well, at least its over! We felt with these things you never know how it went, you probably came out thinking I wish we should have said this or that, and I should not have mentioned x,etc. It seems as though it went well from your thread. It will seem like a lifetime now, waiting for that envelope...well done, and good luck, my prayers are with you for a positive outcome.

tcd27 - so sorry to hear your devastating news, my heart goes out to you. Please dont give up hope, and as I tell my DCs, it is an experience that will ultimately make you all stronger from it. You may not feel like it now, but faith is a great healer and you should never give up.

Good Luck

Colax

[tinabf]

Just to say that I posted feedback on sticky. But I have stopped crying now and re-reading to check that I am not going mad. We got our appeal, even though I had convinced myself all day today that we would not. It was worth all the agony to see DD 's face. I hope my mum is looking on and smiling too. Thank you all for your support, especially Sally Anne, Etienne and others, whose advice I utilised . To all that did not get their appeal, I am so sorry that it did nto work out. At the end of the day, I do feel that it is not a fair process -there is a lottery element, but then I am not sure how I could improve it...

For any whose appeal is still to come. Do read the forum -there are some real gems of info, contribute if you can, and take heart from the fact that if you have done your best, then that is all you can do...I am off to imbibe a large glass of wine! Cheers!

[Etienne]

Congratulations!

A big 'thank you' to those posting on the feedback section - it's such a help to other parents.
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/ ... =35&t=9205" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nearly 19000 views so far .....

[Sally-Anne]

Etienne...you have an incredible memory

Etienne has a memory that is little short of encyclopaedic. I am embarrassed on many occasions when she recalls cases that date back some years with such apparent ease, while the memory of them has long since been wiped from my mind.

I am so sad for the parents who have not received good news. I have been in the same situation and I know how much it hurts, whether it is for one child or - worse - a twin who does not get through when their twin's appeal is successful.

Once in every appeals round I find there is a need to post the comment that was made to me when DS1's appeal was not successful: "Cream will always rise to the top".

Although DS1 was eventually successful in gaining a GS place through the 12+, that is not a universal panacea because of the limited spaces available.

I hear very regularly of children who have narrowly failed to qualify in the Bucks 11+, and the parents appealed unsuccessfully, who are now taking their Upper Schools by storm. They are in top sets, sometimes they are in extension programmes, and they are grasping every opportunity that presents itself for extra-curricular activities and their self-esteem is boosted accordingly.

Cream really does rise to the top, both academically and personally, in almost any environment. (I should mention that one of the most wonderful success stories I know of was of a child who attended a school that is regarded as being one of the "less desirable" Bucks Uppers and he has done exceptionally well - far better than many of his GS friends.)

I congratulate everyone who has been successful in their appeal!

Sally-Anne