Grammar school appeal in Gloucestershire

[Piper]

"The statement they get from the admissions authority" This implies some sort of guidance by the authority to the appeals panel.

What of the converse situation one normally expects. Of a school with say, 150 places, only 120 allocated and 30 appeals.

The school wants the places filled.

Would the appeals panel take no notice at all of the situation or do they take some guidance from the admissions team and hence lose their independence?

Assuming each appeal had a reasonable case, would the number of places available influence decisions?

[capers123]

Disclaimer: This has been written under the influence of jenever & wijn, so it may be a complete load of ........


Assuming each appeal had a reasonable case, would the number of places available influence decisions?

No. It's very unlikely that each appeal had a similar case. We would probably allow those appeals which we felt meant they had a valid reason for not passing the exam and had they not had that problem would have done so.

In reality, we know that the local authority has allocated 150 to the school (or whatever), but we also know it can take an extra 2 in each class. We would look at the appeals and select those who had valid reasons and would cope.

It might take the figures to 160. It might be more, or less. We might not allow any. After the appeals, there may be a few children fropping out after they've got scholarships to Eton... who knows how many spaces there will be. It's not our problem. But we would not want to prejudice the children already admitted by making them be in huge classes any more than we would want to not admit a child who should be there.

It's a nightmare. Don't wish it on anyone. It's 4 days after the appeal and I still feel awful about most of the appeals we didn't allow - but would you want your child to be in a class with 39 or 40 other children - 'cause if we'd allowed all the appeals, that's what would have happened. Who can say if a school is full.

We just hope the children turned down (and those allowed) are happy in their schools. I've heard from some parents turned down last year (acquaintances) who are really happy at their new schools.

Capers

[Guest]

The schools I am familiar with are Foundation Schools which recruit from a very wide area and are oversubscribed by a factor of about 8. They are therefore always filled to their published admission number with children of the appropriate standard when the appeals take place. As Foundation schools they are their own admissions authority, normally represented at appeals by the Head Teacher who presents the case to the appeal panel not to have any more children admitted. His or her statement would cover all the facts about classroom size, laboratory and IT resources, toilets, storage facilities, etc, as well as the fact that the child appealing had not scored as highly as those who were admitted. In the case of local authority schools I would think an LEA representative would present a similar case for non-admission if the school was already full.

For selective schools with spare capacity I assume the issue would be that the children appealing had not reached the required standard, which would be a different matter. I can't really comment on this as I don't live in an area like Bucks, for example, where most children take the 11+. Better wait for Capers to come back on this one.

[capers123]

The appeals we hear are where

1) the child has passed the entrance test but has not been admitted (The school offers places to the top 120 who passed, and then as some turn the places down, they fill from the next highest pass)

and 2) Where the child did not reach the pass mark.

We hear all these in one go, as it is possible that a child who didn't pass the test has reasons that outweigh those who did. To us it's a case of 'why didn't they do better on the day'.

We will allow any appeal that gives us good enough reasons, as long as admitting them will not adversely affect those already offered places.

Exceptionally, we allow more appeals than the school can cope with, but I think that by the beginning of term, Little Johnny who is waiting for his scholarship to Eton to come through may have dropped out.

And sometimes, even though we have allowed an appeal, the parents don't take up the place - either they were appealing for another school as well, or send the child to private schools. It's annoying, but we would still have upheld the appeal even if we knew this in advance. Once the appeals are over, it's of no concern to us what happens - although we often wonder how the children are getting on.

It would be great to find out if the occasional 'lowish' scorer whose appeal we allowed is doing well or struggling - but there's no way of knowing (other than bumping into parents in the supermarket).

[Maria]

My daughter recently got her results and did not pass by 2 marks. We would like to appeal.

I'm not sure what valid reason she has though. She admits she was overconfident, maybe worked through the questions too quickly and then didn't check her work carefully (she scored 110/140 in Math but consistently scored 90%+ as in the practice exams). That reason probably isn't going to help much right? She wasn't feeling ill and was probably not any more nervous that all the others taking the exam. Its hard to push her for an answer as I don't want her to think I expect her to have or invent one. Maybe she just doesn't know.

It was the verbal reasoning paper that actually brought her below the passing mark. She hadn't prepared for that one much. The truth is we were trying to get her caught up in Math for months and didn't have time after practicing Non-Verbal to practice Verbal. I'm guessing that it wouldn't be helpful to say any of that at an appeal though (kids aren't supposed to prepare right?). There never was an indication from her school that she was so behind in Maths. They always gave her high marks and high praise every year. We only found out how far behind she was when she sat down to do her first Maths practice test, which she couldn't sit down and do at first because she didn't know her 12x12 times tables. So basically, she has made huge improvements in Math in a short amount of time but we have no hard evidence (from school reports) that she was ever at a level that was of any concern. Her habits were those of carelessness and half-guessing but now she calculates and follows methods and is comfortable with fractions, decimals, metric units, etc. If we had had the money to tutor her, perhaps a tutor could have vouched for her. But as I am skilled in math, I tutored her. Looks like this was a mistake in one sense (i.e. not having evidence now).

Any ideas out there on how to present this case?

-Maria

[capers123]

My daughter recently got her results and did not pass by 2 marks. We would like to appeal.

As far as I am aware, you can't appeal (In Gloucestershire) until the allocations come through in March, as the appeal is against not being offered a place for some reason or other, the reasons being either that your child passed the exam but with not a high enough mark to make the top 120, or your child didn't pass the exam, or that the school / county did not work the admissions policy correctly.

I'm not sure what valid reason she has though.

I'm afraid you will need some valid reasons. We've had people turn up with no reason before, and while we try gently to draw out reasons from them, if it's just a case of 'a bit nervous', then that's not likely to be enough. There are likely to be other appeals with a similar score who do have a good-ish reason. Not having been tutored is worth mentioning - you'll find others here have said in the past "almost all children are tutored, so anyone who says their child wasn't is probably lying", so it depends on the panels views.

Its hard to push her for an answer as I don't want her to think I expect her to have or invent one. Maybe she just doesn't know.

Any major reason would need to be documented to stand up to scrutiny - so doctors notes, death certificates, letters from school saying child was bullied over the last year - and of course, it's now way after the exam, so you won't have any contemporary docs. And we're more likely to allow an appeal where the child has passed but not been admitted than not passed.

Sorry to sound so negative. If the school is undersubscribed (and it could happen), it is worth going on the waiting list & appealing - what have you to loose but your sanity?

And if all else fails and you still feel that it's not right, go for the 12+. I have known failed appellants getting in this way, all be it 1 year later, and I've even suggested it on occasion to parents during an appeal - with the caveat that I don't know what the outcome will be at that stage (and yes, we have allowed appeals even though I've mentioned this, so it's no indication at all - it sometimes means that I feel the child would be suited to a grammar).

Feel free to register & PM me, especially if you're in Glos.

[gloucestermum]

Hi,
What county are you in? You speak of verbal.maths and non verbal tests so this cannot be Gloucestershire.Can I ask you to let us know what LA you are in so that perhaps you can post in that forum area,or alternatively in the appeals section of the forum.The advice you receive may be more helpful to you then!

Regards,
Gloucestermum.