BUCKS Appeals
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Sally-Anne
Prejudice against Prep School children?
Some really helpful advice from Etienne - we are appealing for our son on 117. A (probably very cynical) parent said that we don't stand a chance because he is at a Prep School and the panel will assume that we can just keep paying for the next 7 years. Sadly we can't afford to - it has cost us everything we can afford to get him this far, and we only did it because our catchment primary school is absolutely awful.
Our son is a strong all-rounder, but an especially achiever at Science, and looks to have real potential in physics and chemistry - which may explain why verbal reasoning isn't quite his thing?? None of the local Upper schools offer physics at A2 level, and only one offers chemistry and may discontinue it due to lack of interest - they only had one pupil last year. Is any of this worth using in an appeal?
Thank you - Sally-Anne
Our son is a strong all-rounder, but an especially achiever at Science, and looks to have real potential in physics and chemistry - which may explain why verbal reasoning isn't quite his thing?? None of the local Upper schools offer physics at A2 level, and only one offers chemistry and may discontinue it due to lack of interest - they only had one pupil last year. Is any of this worth using in an appeal?
Thank you - Sally-Anne
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Jed
I sympathise with your position and would be interested to know what Etienne's opinion is about whether the subjects offered by any particular upper or grammar is a valid argument for 11+ appeal.
My feeling a parent is that it probably isn't. There's a nationwide shortage of physics teachers and the top private London girl's school at which my mother teaches is seriously considering dropping A level physics, so the problem is not confined to upper schools. Don't forget, also, that if he does well in GCSEs, he can always transfer to a grammar for 6th form. I would say it's strong evidence of high academic achievement outside 11+ that it the most important to the panel.
Our daughter also failed to reach 121 (scored 116) and has a strong bias the other way to your son - i.e. very strong in literacy, not strong in Maths/science. We've decided not to appeal. It's tempting to blame her failure on the maths questions in the papers (and opposed to the VR in the case of your son), but I think the truth is that on another day with another test maybe they both might have passed. But they didn't, and now we have to make the most of it.
Having said that, the appeal is always worth a go, so good luck.
Jed
My feeling a parent is that it probably isn't. There's a nationwide shortage of physics teachers and the top private London girl's school at which my mother teaches is seriously considering dropping A level physics, so the problem is not confined to upper schools. Don't forget, also, that if he does well in GCSEs, he can always transfer to a grammar for 6th form. I would say it's strong evidence of high academic achievement outside 11+ that it the most important to the panel.
Our daughter also failed to reach 121 (scored 116) and has a strong bias the other way to your son - i.e. very strong in literacy, not strong in Maths/science. We've decided not to appeal. It's tempting to blame her failure on the maths questions in the papers (and opposed to the VR in the case of your son), but I think the truth is that on another day with another test maybe they both might have passed. But they didn't, and now we have to make the most of it.
Having said that, the appeal is always worth a go, so good luck.
Jed
Appeals
Dear Sally-Anne
Rest assured that you will not be discriminated against because your son has attended a private school. The only thing that matters is the evidence, and whether it is sufficiently compelling for a panel to be able to overturn the LEA decision.
117 is a respectable score. It is worth making the point that your son is much stronger on the science side, and you could cautiously suggest as an extenuating circumstance that verbal reasoning might not fully reflect his abilities.
Of course, the more exceptional your son is at Science, the better! There was a case some years ago where a boy had a slight weakness in VR, but had been selected to take part in a Maths Olympiad. I cannot recall all the details now, but the appeal succeeded.
You could briefly mention your concern about A2 Science, but it wouldn’t be a convincing argument on its own. The more evidence you have of very high (rather than above average) ability in as many academic areas as possible, the stronger your case will be.
Don’t despair if your appeal doesn’t succeed. I’m sure you’re aware of the 12+. I think the 12+ is a bit unpredictable in that a single test can produce an erratic result (the three tests used in the old 11+ gave a more reliable picture). It is also different from the 11+ in that it is standardised on a national scale, with an average of 100 (whereas the 11+ is standardised specifically for Bucks, with an average of 110). I understand that County are reviewing the late selection test, but I have no idea whether or when they will make any changes.
There is no automatic right to sit the 12+. County will require a report from the school, and this will be crucial in getting accepted for testing. It is worth appealing if testing is refused - this is one type of appeal where panels tend to give the "benefit of the doubt". For most appeals the average success rate is around 30%. For appeals against refusal to test I would estimate that the figure is closer to 90%!
In addition to the 12+ (and possibly the 13+!), your son could try the 14+ in year 9 (for year 10 entry). This is administered by individual grammar schools, and is very different because it includes subject tests (usually English, Science, Maths as a minimum). Verbal Reasoning is omitted or is only a part of the procedure, and this might suit your son better.
Finally, as Jed has pointed out, there is the option of transferring to a grammar school 6th form on the basis of some good GCSE results.
Rest assured that you will not be discriminated against because your son has attended a private school. The only thing that matters is the evidence, and whether it is sufficiently compelling for a panel to be able to overturn the LEA decision.
117 is a respectable score. It is worth making the point that your son is much stronger on the science side, and you could cautiously suggest as an extenuating circumstance that verbal reasoning might not fully reflect his abilities.
Of course, the more exceptional your son is at Science, the better! There was a case some years ago where a boy had a slight weakness in VR, but had been selected to take part in a Maths Olympiad. I cannot recall all the details now, but the appeal succeeded.
You could briefly mention your concern about A2 Science, but it wouldn’t be a convincing argument on its own. The more evidence you have of very high (rather than above average) ability in as many academic areas as possible, the stronger your case will be.
Don’t despair if your appeal doesn’t succeed. I’m sure you’re aware of the 12+. I think the 12+ is a bit unpredictable in that a single test can produce an erratic result (the three tests used in the old 11+ gave a more reliable picture). It is also different from the 11+ in that it is standardised on a national scale, with an average of 100 (whereas the 11+ is standardised specifically for Bucks, with an average of 110). I understand that County are reviewing the late selection test, but I have no idea whether or when they will make any changes.
There is no automatic right to sit the 12+. County will require a report from the school, and this will be crucial in getting accepted for testing. It is worth appealing if testing is refused - this is one type of appeal where panels tend to give the "benefit of the doubt". For most appeals the average success rate is around 30%. For appeals against refusal to test I would estimate that the figure is closer to 90%!
In addition to the 12+ (and possibly the 13+!), your son could try the 14+ in year 9 (for year 10 entry). This is administered by individual grammar schools, and is very different because it includes subject tests (usually English, Science, Maths as a minimum). Verbal Reasoning is omitted or is only a part of the procedure, and this might suit your son better.
Finally, as Jed has pointed out, there is the option of transferring to a grammar school 6th form on the basis of some good GCSE results.
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Sally-Anne
Appeals
A few last-minute suggestions and odd bits of information – nothing earth shattering! Feel free to ignore what follows – just my own thoughts.
Plan your presentation. Write it down in advance. Time yourself. Don’t go on for more than 5 - 15 minutes. It should be long enough for your key points to be clear, but not so long that the panel drown in all the detail – there are no brownie points for talking interminably! The panel have already read all the paperwork – what they need now is for you to highlight the main arguments and supporting evidence. If they want a lot more detail, they’ll ask you.
The clerk would appreciate a spare copy of your presentation if you don’t mind bringing one. (The clerk will take brief notes during the hearing, but a copy of your presentation will ensure a full and accurate record of your case.)
Aim to arrive in good time. If you should have any problems such as parking (and the panel is running to schedule), you don’t want to arrive at your hearing breathless and flustered. If you’re too early, have a book or newspaper with you to pass the time. Relax with a flask of coffee.
Unfortunately Reception might be a bit too crowded for relaxation purposes! There can be up to 8 panels a day working simultaneously (although I guess one if not more of these will be in Amersham). For hearings in Aylesbury you will be taken to one of the rooms in County Hall, or one of the buildings across the road, or to the Civic Centre.
Be prepared for the possibility of delays. The first case usually gets under way on time, but unexpected delays can then build up. (Panels sometimes reduce their lunch break to as little as 15 minutes to try and catch up.) The last figures I saw involved a random survey of 100 appellants a couple of years ago. Of those who replied, 18 were seen for their appeal within 15 minutes, 10 within 15-30 minutes, 8 within 30-45 minutes, 4 within 45-60 minutes, and 2 after an hour or more.
It doesn’t matter if you’re nervous. The hearing is meant to be “as informal as possible” but, inevitably, when you walk into a strange room and sit down with three panel members, an LEA representative and a clerk, it can still seem intimidating. Remember that panels are used to dealing with nervous and sometimes distraught parents. Much better to be nervous than in an overconfident or aggressive frame of mind.
Panel members will not intentionally seek to do anything to add to your stress. They have to assess the evidence rigorously, but they will do their best to put you at your ease, so that you can present your case properly. When it's all over, even if you disagree with the result, I hope you will feel that you have been treated considerately and given a fair hearing.
If you introduce any last-minute papers (other than schoolwork), please help by providing 6-7 copies, so that everyone present has their own copy (3 panel members, LEA rep., clerk, 1-2 parents).
You may view the LEA representative as the “opposition”, but he/she will not be confrontational. Basically all that’s going to be said on behalf of the LEA is that your child did not score 121. Anything else is a matter for the panel.
As far as the parental case is concerned, I note what was written about “appearance” elsewhere, but in my experience a slick presentation is no more convincing than anyone else’s. I think most panels are sufficiently astute to be swayed not by appearances but by their own analysis of the available facts (which is not necessarily going to be the same as the parental analysis!).
If there is any room at all for “appearance”, then I suspect that it is better to understate rather than overstate your case. (Of course, you must still get your main points across.)
Don't exaggerate, avoid clichés. (Panel members might be tempted to groan inwardly when they hear "We're not pushy parents. We're only here because it's what little Johnnie wants. We know our child better than anyone and he's a genius. His teachers agree with us and they should know. Huge mitigating circumstances. He's been through so much, the poor dear. Still finds time to help old ladies cross the road. A paragon of virtue. A candidate for sainthood." (OK, I'm the one exaggerating, but you get the point.)
Be truthful. A few parents aren't, and it's a very high risk strategy!
Feel free to read your presentation word for word, or have it in front of you as a prompt. Some of the most disjointed and poorly presented cases I ever heard were when parents had only thought in general terms about what they were going to say, and on the day did a double-act, ad-libbing incoherently.
When the panel ask you questions, don’t feel threatened if the questions do not immediately appear to be supportive. There’s little point in the panel asking you about things they fully understand or agree with! For all you know they could be 95% in agreement with you, but they will still want to probe, to find out more, or to explore something that hasn’t even been mentioned. Sometimes a question will be put to the LEA “for the record” or for the information of parents (not because the panel don’t know the answer), e.g. explain the significance of three level 5s. Sometimes, alas, (especially when all the important questions have already been put) a panel member will ask you a question of no real significance so that you don’t leave thinking “Panel Member X showed no interest at all – couldn’t even be bothered to ask me anything”! Favourite “filler” questions are “What does your child do in his/her free time?” and “What did he/she say on returning home after the first/second test?”
When invited to sum up, do keep to the minute or two specified in the booklet. Just remind the panel very succinctly of your key points.
Finally, although you will be hoping for a positive outcome, be prepared for anything. 120 is no guarantee of success. Appeals with low scores are sometimes upheld.
Plan your presentation. Write it down in advance. Time yourself. Don’t go on for more than 5 - 15 minutes. It should be long enough for your key points to be clear, but not so long that the panel drown in all the detail – there are no brownie points for talking interminably! The panel have already read all the paperwork – what they need now is for you to highlight the main arguments and supporting evidence. If they want a lot more detail, they’ll ask you.
The clerk would appreciate a spare copy of your presentation if you don’t mind bringing one. (The clerk will take brief notes during the hearing, but a copy of your presentation will ensure a full and accurate record of your case.)
Aim to arrive in good time. If you should have any problems such as parking (and the panel is running to schedule), you don’t want to arrive at your hearing breathless and flustered. If you’re too early, have a book or newspaper with you to pass the time. Relax with a flask of coffee.
Unfortunately Reception might be a bit too crowded for relaxation purposes! There can be up to 8 panels a day working simultaneously (although I guess one if not more of these will be in Amersham). For hearings in Aylesbury you will be taken to one of the rooms in County Hall, or one of the buildings across the road, or to the Civic Centre.
Be prepared for the possibility of delays. The first case usually gets under way on time, but unexpected delays can then build up. (Panels sometimes reduce their lunch break to as little as 15 minutes to try and catch up.) The last figures I saw involved a random survey of 100 appellants a couple of years ago. Of those who replied, 18 were seen for their appeal within 15 minutes, 10 within 15-30 minutes, 8 within 30-45 minutes, 4 within 45-60 minutes, and 2 after an hour or more.
It doesn’t matter if you’re nervous. The hearing is meant to be “as informal as possible” but, inevitably, when you walk into a strange room and sit down with three panel members, an LEA representative and a clerk, it can still seem intimidating. Remember that panels are used to dealing with nervous and sometimes distraught parents. Much better to be nervous than in an overconfident or aggressive frame of mind.
Panel members will not intentionally seek to do anything to add to your stress. They have to assess the evidence rigorously, but they will do their best to put you at your ease, so that you can present your case properly. When it's all over, even if you disagree with the result, I hope you will feel that you have been treated considerately and given a fair hearing.
If you introduce any last-minute papers (other than schoolwork), please help by providing 6-7 copies, so that everyone present has their own copy (3 panel members, LEA rep., clerk, 1-2 parents).
You may view the LEA representative as the “opposition”, but he/she will not be confrontational. Basically all that’s going to be said on behalf of the LEA is that your child did not score 121. Anything else is a matter for the panel.
As far as the parental case is concerned, I note what was written about “appearance” elsewhere, but in my experience a slick presentation is no more convincing than anyone else’s. I think most panels are sufficiently astute to be swayed not by appearances but by their own analysis of the available facts (which is not necessarily going to be the same as the parental analysis!).
If there is any room at all for “appearance”, then I suspect that it is better to understate rather than overstate your case. (Of course, you must still get your main points across.)
Don't exaggerate, avoid clichés. (Panel members might be tempted to groan inwardly when they hear "We're not pushy parents. We're only here because it's what little Johnnie wants. We know our child better than anyone and he's a genius. His teachers agree with us and they should know. Huge mitigating circumstances. He's been through so much, the poor dear. Still finds time to help old ladies cross the road. A paragon of virtue. A candidate for sainthood." (OK, I'm the one exaggerating, but you get the point.)
Be truthful. A few parents aren't, and it's a very high risk strategy!
Feel free to read your presentation word for word, or have it in front of you as a prompt. Some of the most disjointed and poorly presented cases I ever heard were when parents had only thought in general terms about what they were going to say, and on the day did a double-act, ad-libbing incoherently.
When the panel ask you questions, don’t feel threatened if the questions do not immediately appear to be supportive. There’s little point in the panel asking you about things they fully understand or agree with! For all you know they could be 95% in agreement with you, but they will still want to probe, to find out more, or to explore something that hasn’t even been mentioned. Sometimes a question will be put to the LEA “for the record” or for the information of parents (not because the panel don’t know the answer), e.g. explain the significance of three level 5s. Sometimes, alas, (especially when all the important questions have already been put) a panel member will ask you a question of no real significance so that you don’t leave thinking “Panel Member X showed no interest at all – couldn’t even be bothered to ask me anything”! Favourite “filler” questions are “What does your child do in his/her free time?” and “What did he/she say on returning home after the first/second test?”
When invited to sum up, do keep to the minute or two specified in the booklet. Just remind the panel very succinctly of your key points.
Finally, although you will be hoping for a positive outcome, be prepared for anything. 120 is no guarantee of success. Appeals with low scores are sometimes upheld.
Etienne
Thanks for taking the time to write all that. The bit above is the hardest.Don't exaggerate, avoid clichés. (Panel members might be tempted to groan inwardly when they hear "We're not pushy parents. We're only here because it's what little Johnnie wants. We know our child better than anyone and he's a genius. His teachers agree with us and they should know. Huge mitigating circumstances. He's been through so much, the poor dear. Still finds time to help old ladies cross the road. A paragon of virtue. A candidate for sainthood." (OK, I'm the one exaggerating, but you get the point.)
Keep looking at our appeal speach and am worried we could be guilty of a few of the points above. Not sure if we are or arent!! Need a proof reading service
Appeals
Dear Chins
Don't worry too much about this. I've been trying to give an insight into the mind of a panel, and to suggest the "ideal appeal" - but no appeal is ever perfect, of course (just as no panel is perfect
).
I was tentatively suggesting that an understated rather than an exaggerated presentation might make more of an impression, but my main point has always been that what really matters is the evidence and the strength of the case, rather than appearance or presentation.
If parents gave an inarticulate presentation because they were genuinely overwhelmed by the pressure and in great distress, I'm sure that a panel would still tease out what was important about the case. They would not want the parents to be disadvantaged by their inability to present the case properly. (Equally they would not allow their sympathy for the distressed parents to sway their judgement.)
To give another example, I recall one occasion where the parents were thoroughly obnoxious. The appeal was unanimously upheld. Parents won their appeal despite being rude and aggressive. When they got the result they probably thought what a marvellous job they had done but, in fact, they did an appalling job. To their credit, the panel focused on the arguments and were persuaded by the merits of the case.
Ideally, of course, one shouldn't set out to be obnoxious to an appeals panel ..............
Don't worry too much about this. I've been trying to give an insight into the mind of a panel, and to suggest the "ideal appeal" - but no appeal is ever perfect, of course (just as no panel is perfect
).I was tentatively suggesting that an understated rather than an exaggerated presentation might make more of an impression, but my main point has always been that what really matters is the evidence and the strength of the case, rather than appearance or presentation.
If parents gave an inarticulate presentation because they were genuinely overwhelmed by the pressure and in great distress, I'm sure that a panel would still tease out what was important about the case. They would not want the parents to be disadvantaged by their inability to present the case properly. (Equally they would not allow their sympathy for the distressed parents to sway their judgement.)
To give another example, I recall one occasion where the parents were thoroughly obnoxious. The appeal was unanimously upheld. Parents won their appeal despite being rude and aggressive. When they got the result they probably thought what a marvellous job they had done but, in fact, they did an appalling job. To their credit, the panel focused on the arguments and were persuaded by the merits of the case.
Ideally, of course, one shouldn't set out to be obnoxious to an appeals panel ..............
Etienne
I've found a lot of really helpful information here, so thanks.
My daughter's appeal hearing is tomorrow morning so I'm gathering final pieces of information.
The independent school she currently attends doesn't use SATS, but uses the NFER CAT 3 tests. Does anyone know whether it will be necessary to produce tables correlating results of one test to the other? I don't want to be at a disadvantage through not having an easy comparison from one system to another.
My daughter's appeal hearing is tomorrow morning so I'm gathering final pieces of information.
The independent school she currently attends doesn't use SATS, but uses the NFER CAT 3 tests. Does anyone know whether it will be necessary to produce tables correlating results of one test to the other? I don't want to be at a disadvantage through not having an easy comparison from one system to another.
