Twins appeal 1 successful 1 not
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doubletrouble2
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- Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:10 pm
Re: Twins appeal 1 successful 1 not
Hi Etinne, thanks for this! Do you have the actual link or info as to what I need to provide for non qual appeal! The whole process is mind boggling! Do I mention things like its a specialist school in science and his ambition is to be a surgeon! Hes been attending St john's ambulance since he was 10 in perperation for when he's older! What about Logistical problems, his schhl is 4+ miles in one direction and very limited buses re 1 that he would need to get out of the house about 7.15 to walk to the bus stop 20mins away! His twin will be in the opposite direction re 7 miles away and again 1 bus only available! If they attend the same school I can collect and drop off together! Also the fact his twin achieved the same scores in sats ! Do any of these things count as important to an appeal?!Etienne wrote:If you contact the LA, it would be better to speak to someone in Appeals rather than Admissions. Even so, they might be cautious about advising you what to include.
I'm not sure if this is the thread Menagerie was referring to:
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/ ... 35&t=25123" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Twins appeal 1 successful 1 not
Yes, I think most of this would be relevant. 
Our advice is here:
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeal ... cation#b11" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeal ... -school#c2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It would be worth reading all the way through the Q&As.
Our advice is here:
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeal ... cation#b11" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeal ... -school#c2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It would be worth reading all the way through the Q&As.
Etienne
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doubletrouble2
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:10 pm
Re: Twins appeal 1 successful 1 not
Thank you Etienne! I'll make sure I go through it all!!
Re: Twins appeal 1 successful 1 not
Fortunately I'm not an appeals panel member, but just be prepared to meet someone like me who would like to understand why the fact that they are twins is any more significant schooling-wise than anyone else with a sibling at the same school who would like the convenience of the younger sibling being at the same school?
The sibling preference clauses have now, quite logically, gone out of super-selective school admissions policy as it is incompatible to select on grounds of ability but then let a sibling with a much lower score slip in too. Where we live it is also a fallacious argument as the grammar schools are single sex. So someone with two children of different sexes could never have had the luxury of both children at the same school.
Would you make the same argument for both identical and non-identical twins?
The sibling preference clauses have now, quite logically, gone out of super-selective school admissions policy as it is incompatible to select on grounds of ability but then let a sibling with a much lower score slip in too. Where we live it is also a fallacious argument as the grammar schools are single sex. So someone with two children of different sexes could never have had the luxury of both children at the same school.
Would you make the same argument for both identical and non-identical twins?
Re: Twins appeal 1 successful 1 not
It would be quite reasonable for an appeal panel to probe, although I assume they won't be raising the issues of superselectives and single-s ex schools in this case.
Possible questions:
'Do you want them to be in the same form as well as the same school?'
'How do you determine at what point they should go their separate ways in order to develop as individuals?'
Possible questions:
'Do you want them to be in the same form as well as the same school?'
'How do you determine at what point they should go their separate ways in order to develop as individuals?'
Etienne
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doubletrouble2
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:10 pm
Re: Twins appeal 1 successful 1 not
Etienne wrote:It would be quite reasonable for an appeal panel to probe, although I assume they won't be raising the issues of superselectives and single-s ex schools in this case.
Possible questions:Hi Etienne, although I was thinking of using ds is a twin in the appeal, this would be a brief mention only, this is not my whole argument! The main argument is that the twins are both in the same sets, both on gifted and talented in maths, the twin not passing had results in practise tests that were higher in science and the same in maths and English! Plus logistical reasons re two schools 11 miles apart, both start at 8.30, limited public transport both only have 1 bus available to their allocated schools and both would have to walk 20 - 30 mins to the nearest bus stop which means out of the house walking to bus stop about 7.15 for the one who uses the public transport! The schools are in two different catchment areas meaning different holidays - another nightmare as I work term time! So one would be with me and one would go with a childminder for the difference in holidays! In your opinion with proof of his academic sat scores , logistical problems, having a twin in school etc is it worth going down this stressful route?!
'Do you want them to be in the same form as well as the same school?'
'How do you determine at what point they should go their separate ways in order to develop as individuals?'
Re: Twins appeal 1 successful 1 not
I included the argument about differing term dates in our hearing a couple of years ago. Did it make any difference? I have no idea but our appeal was upheld. Incidentally it was not for DC to attend the same school as siblings.......
Re: Twins appeal 1 successful 1 not
Hi doubletrouble2
The points you mention are worth making at appeal, although no one can say whether they will be sufficient as there will be other factors which are outside of your control (e.g. the strength of the case the admission authority puts forward to resist any further admissions, and the strength of other appellants' cases).
Moving on from the specific issue of twins, we mustn't overlook points that are likely to apply to any appeal.
1. Make sure that your academic evidence is as wide-ranging as possible. The more things you can tick off in the Q&As, B11, the better!
2. I don't know what tests were used for this school's 11+, and whether you have a breakdown of the results, but if you know what the problem was (e.g. too low a score in verbal reasoning), then it would help to have some alternative evidence of ability in VR to counteract this.
3. Be sure to have some evidence in support of the logistical problems, e.g. bus timetable, map showing bus stop relative to your house, published holiday dates for the two schools (this year's will do if next year's aren't available - it would help to show the panel how significant the difference in holiday dates might be).
4. Apart from the twin, and a grammar school education, there should be something about why this particular school would be a good match for your son, so do mention that it's a specialist school in science and that his ambition is to be a surgeon, and do include evidence of his interest or ability in science, and involvement in St John's ambulance brigade.
5. Although I think you're right not to 'overdo' the twin issue - when you refer to it briefly, do mention the distress that occurred with the simultaneous results - and 'some feeling of a possible injustice in that one twin is considered to be as bright as the other' (I choose these words very carefully so as not to overstate the argument!). I would also stress how keen and enthusiastic twin no. 2 is to go to this particular school.
You have the makings of a good case!
The points you mention are worth making at appeal, although no one can say whether they will be sufficient as there will be other factors which are outside of your control (e.g. the strength of the case the admission authority puts forward to resist any further admissions, and the strength of other appellants' cases).
Moving on from the specific issue of twins, we mustn't overlook points that are likely to apply to any appeal.
1. Make sure that your academic evidence is as wide-ranging as possible. The more things you can tick off in the Q&As, B11, the better!
2. I don't know what tests were used for this school's 11+, and whether you have a breakdown of the results, but if you know what the problem was (e.g. too low a score in verbal reasoning), then it would help to have some alternative evidence of ability in VR to counteract this.
3. Be sure to have some evidence in support of the logistical problems, e.g. bus timetable, map showing bus stop relative to your house, published holiday dates for the two schools (this year's will do if next year's aren't available - it would help to show the panel how significant the difference in holiday dates might be).
4. Apart from the twin, and a grammar school education, there should be something about why this particular school would be a good match for your son, so do mention that it's a specialist school in science and that his ambition is to be a surgeon, and do include evidence of his interest or ability in science, and involvement in St John's ambulance brigade.
5. Although I think you're right not to 'overdo' the twin issue - when you refer to it briefly, do mention the distress that occurred with the simultaneous results - and 'some feeling of a possible injustice in that one twin is considered to be as bright as the other' (I choose these words very carefully so as not to overstate the argument!). I would also stress how keen and enthusiastic twin no. 2 is to go to this particular school.
You have the makings of a good case!
Etienne
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doubletrouble2
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:10 pm
Re: Twins appeal 1 successful 1 not
Dear Etienne, once again thank you for the information you provided!I think the only area we may have a problem with is the academic proof! I can provide ks1 showing level 3, ks2 practice tests showing level 5 in all subjects , I think the ht is willing to provide a ltr they were more than willing in the 1st local appeal! His teacher thinks highly of him so I'm sure he'll attach a ltr plus provide supporting evidence, a few past school reports spking of high achievement in maths, but we don't have cat scores as they don't test them! Our school is not in the catchment for 11+ schools, we just sat it as the twin 2 wanted to go so much with them specialising in science! Is it worth paying for some extra evidence? Or just go with what we have? Interestingly they said in the local review he was under the pass mark on all subjects, but actually got a higher score in the breakdowns than his twin on maths and vr, who got the extra points on English exam to get a place! Is this worth a mention?
Re: Twins appeal 1 successful 1 not
No easy answer, I'm afraid. It might make all the difference, or it might make no difference at all. Only your particular appeal panel can decide what is going to be sufficiently persuasive.Is it worth paying for some extra evidence?
Probably best not to 'overdo' comparisons with the twin, although no harm in mentioning it if a natural opportunity arises in the question & answer session.Interestingly they said in the local review he was under the pass mark on all subjects, but actually got a higher score in the breakdowns than his twin on maths and vr, who got the extra points on English exam to get a place! Is this worth a mention?
We do need to establish what their policy is on local reviews - do you happen to know?they said in the local review ......
http://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appeal ... cation#b18" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Turning a negative point (not in catchment) into a positive. I like it!Our school is not in the catchment for 11+ schools, we just sat it as the twin 2 wanted to go so much with them specialising in science!
Etienne
