Stage 1 Appeal Advice, etc.

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Etienne
Posts: 8978
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:26 pm

Re: Stage 1 Appeal Advice, etc.

Post by Etienne »

will they be expecting me to accept that previous year group PAN's (which are lower) still apply to my in-year appeal?
It does apply in practice - but it's interesting that they use the word "technically" .... :)

The best way to handle this is to ask some gentle, probing questions. For example:
I note that you describe the year group as being 'technically full'. Is there a difference between being 'full' and being 'technically full'?
May I ask if you would concede that the school could actually cope with an extra pupil in this year group?
Etienne
inti
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:07 pm

Re: Stage 1 Appeal Advice, etc.

Post by inti »

Thanks,

That is a mighty fine phrasing as ever Etienne!
I am finding that I can't really step back and find nuggets like this. I am too emotional!!!

Re: new PAN they have arrived at for next Sept. How significant is this in the light of an appeal? I was reading many threads lastnight because I was sure that there was a post somewhere where an appealing parent discovered the same.

The school I am appealing for increased the size of its 6th Form last year by 45+
Now they have increased the PAN for its Year 7 intake.
Their capacity assessment done years ago by LEA (before they became academy) recommends 1383 pupils.
They are currently at 1462 capacity.
Next year with an extra 8 Year 7's, they will be at 1470.

As an academy they don't need a new capacity assessment. Do you think they will just keep quoting this figure for their own convenience?
Next year, they will look very "technically full"with 80+ pupils over their capacity?

Cheers,
Inti
Etienne
Posts: 8978
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:26 pm

Re: Stage 1 Appeal Advice, etc.

Post by Etienne »

How significant is this in the light of an appeal?
Do you think they will just keep quoting this figure for their own convenience?
The key issue for stage one is going to be whether they can satisfy the panel that there would be prejudice.
Etienne
inti
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:07 pm

Re: Stage 1 Appeal Advice, etc.

Post by inti »

Hi Etienne,

Feeling good about my Stage 2 case to present. However, I have some real niggles about this school and the the information it has presented for its own case and I would like to get some clarification from them.

I have posted in the Appeals Box some school specific evidence. I would really value your advice on this.
I have found an error in the schools case and am unsure of how to tackle it.

Huge thanks

Inti :wink:
Etienne
Posts: 8978
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:26 pm

Re: Stage 1 Appeal Advice, etc.

Post by Etienne »

Could you post some questions here (not the background information)?

It makes it easier for me to respond. :)

Thanks
Etienne
inti
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:07 pm

Re: Stage 1 Appeal Advice, etc.

Post by inti »

Feeling good about my Stage 2 case to present. However, I have some real niggles about this school and the the information it has presented for its own case and I would like to get some clarification from them.

I don't want to take issue with the numbers per se - just cast some doubt upon their actual pupil numbers. You have seen my school specific stuff I PM'ed to you.

So, Etienne, my questions to you and for the benefit of the forum are:
•Do these numbers add up to you? Is there a discrepancy?
•Have I phrased the question in the best way? (I don't want to sound aggressive or alienate the panel)
•Do I need to mention 'prejudice' somewhere in my question?
• In what ways may they try to account for this slip-up in the numbers?
•What if they say it was a clerical error? Can I, or the panel, accept that?
•Is this what they mean by being "technically full", because they are not that sure how many pupils are in each year group?

Thanks,

Inti
Etienne
Posts: 8978
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:26 pm

Re: Stage 1 Appeal Advice, etc.

Post by Etienne »

•Is there a discrepancy?
It would appear so.
•Have I phrased the question in the best way? (I don't want to sound aggressive or alienate the panel)
I wouldn't advise using the last two questions.
  • "Are you sure .......?" and
    "If you are not sure on the actual number .....").
It is enough that you simply point to the discrepancy.
The issue of "room for one more pupil" doesn't arise (technically speaking!) until the number on roll has fallen to one below PAN.
•Do I need to mention 'prejudice' somewhere in my question?
Yes! Make this your last and most important question:
  • "Bearing in mind the increase in PAN - even though it doesn't apply to year 8 - what exactly would be the prejudice of admitting one more child into this year group?
    Is there any hard evidence from previous years that prejudice was caused by the admission of a limited number of additional pupils?
    "
• In what ways may they try to account for this slip-up in the numbers?
Clerical error is the most obvious possibility!
•What if they say it was a clerical error? Can I, or the panel, accept that?
It's up to the panel to decide. In a sense it doesn't really matter whether the number on roll is 206 or 207. What matters is whether the admission of an extra pupil would cause prejudice.
•Is this what they mean by being "technically full", because they are not that sure how many pupils are in each year group?
I doubt it. I'm rather hoping it means that they're over PAN but could cope with an extra pupil! :)
Etienne
inti
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:07 pm

Re: Stage 1 Appeal Advice, etc.

Post by inti »

It would appear so.
Thank you!!!!! I am not going crazy! I realise that my original heading of 'Stage 1 Appeal' wasn't for nothing. I knew that I could find some solid evidence I could use. The Stage 2 bit is done and dusted. Whilst I don't want to come over as a nitpicker in Stage 1, however, if you do find evidence from a school which contradicts itself, then you should find a way to use it. With the sound advice of Etienne! :D
I found out today that appeals in my county have the lowest chance of success in UK. I think that maybe thats why I feel the need to pull out all the stops. No grammar schools here either :(
Hopefully though, other forum readers will get some benefit whatever my DC's outcome. I will post all the details after the hearing outcome. I realise I am not grammar appeal, but if I can help in any way? In retrospect, of course :)
The issue of "room for one more pupil" doesn't arise (technically speaking!) until the number on roll has fallen to one below PAN.
Thanks for reminding me. Yep, this is the trap I do not particularly want to fall into. I need to be careful here and choose my phrasing well. Thanks for your advice here. Aren't we getting technical!!
It's up to the panel to decide. In a sense it doesn't really matter whether the number on roll is 206 or 207. What matters is whether the admission of an extra pupil would cause prejudice.
Or the seed of doubt I plant regarding this discrepancy? If I can gently/coyly suggest that I really don't understand the figures they have presented...and need them explained to me?
I just hope that the panel can get their heads around it! Panel are 2 ladies and a bloke with a title (?). I have other short points to make in Stage 1 which will elude to the school having capacity in this Year group.

Please Etienne, I want to let you know how valuable you are. X. You have really helped me. Of course I have a great deal resting on this appeal. I just want my son home and to be happy. He gave me a big hug at the weekend when I told him that I would try my best at the appeal. He told me that its down to the 'luck of the draw'. He's 12 and knows this. He knows that I can't wave a magic wand and make it OK. I only wish I could.

Huge thanks again to all at 11+

Inti
inti
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:07 pm

Re: Stage 1 Appeal Advice, etc.

Post by inti »

Hi,
Had appeal earlier this week and letter came today.

Unsuccessful... :(

School won stage 1.
School rep got cross at me asking about the number descrepancy. I also showed evidence (from council plans I got from internet) for the new building which stated that large rooms in the 6th form would be used for exams and would reduce pressure on the rest of the building. He got quite cross at that point.
I was told by the chair that I should not have distributed this evidence to the panel at stage 1 as it was 'new evidence'. I was aware that this only applied to stage 2 as you don't have to send in evidence for the school case? I am correct in this, because they made me feel very naughty at the time?

Anyway, to get to stage 2 and the issues with that. I thought my case was compelling enough. However, the panel comprised of a senior local education officer, a teacher from a private school and a lay person ( who 'put me straight' with "I sent all 4 of my boys to boarding school").

I didn't stand a chance in converting the beliefs of this panel.

My lovely lad has done a year and a bit at boarding school, on his own merit (and with a huge bursary) he was given a place. A fantastic opportunity which many would love, but being away for weeks on end is not working too well for him and he wants to come home and go to a state school.

So, as Etienne reminds us... you can provide the most compelling case but your fortune is likely to be influenced by the panel you have.

I want to send my support to all the folks on this forum who are appealing. You are all doing a great job for your kids. I wish you all the best in your cases.
And thank you all at 11+. There is no advice out there to help us. ACE has folded as an organisation, so you are all we have!

Inti xxxxxxxx
Etienne
Posts: 8978
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:26 pm

Re: Stage 1 Appeal Advice, etc.

Post by Etienne »

Very sorry to hear this, Inti, as you worked so hard on your appeal.

At stage one the appellant is just expected to ask some questions. I would only have considered referring to the evidence you mention if you had been given a misleading answer.

It sounds as if the school was strongly resisting the appeal, despite the new PAN.

If you want to copy the decision letter to me, I don't mind checking to see if everything appears to be in order.
Etienne
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